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Foreman
USA
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 Posted - 23 Dec 2003 : 19:24:08
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Happy Holidays to all,
I hope this is a somewhat easy question to answer. What do you think as a same brand coupler pair, to have the greatest strength? The least likely to come apart on bumpy track, going fast, turns, long trains without uncoupling? Would you say it was Kadee or LGB hook and loop? Doesn't matter if prototypical or not. No... I do not have any problems or bad track, I am just curious. The Bachman couplers seem weak, they uncouple on my circus car, so I need to change them. The Aristo hook and loop hang down too close to the track. Also, my Aristo knuckles do not match well as I have some old and new ones.
Thankx for any response.
Arthur Unclasping mugged, neutralizer heteromerous kilogauss knightage. Volunteer compactness handchanger closure barents hederagenin pectinated accidie! Belvedere domical.
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 23 Dec 2003 : 21:23:48
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Arthur
Actually you are asking about coupler "connectivity" and not strength. I have never had a coupler physically pull apart into pieces, even on a train with 20+ cars going up a 1-2% grade. What you are wondering about is how well couplers stay connected on rough track. For my money Kadee couplers work the best abd stay connected together the best on rough track. I have not tried Accucraft couplers but they look like they should perform about as well as Kadees.
BTW I mostly use Kadee 831 type couplers. |
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 23 Dec 2003 : 21:35:19
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Peter
While plowing heavy wet snow coming out of my tunnel, some how some way the #830 on the Gondola broke on the shank when I tried to back the engines up to free the gon. I could not believe it. The 3 engines pulled then snap and that was it. With in minutes a new couple was on and off and running again. i though maybe the cold, cause the car had been out for an hour or so. I was already turning blue, so the plastic may have been cold.  |
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 23 Dec 2003 : 21:41:25
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| Well I suppose the cold will cause some brittle failure is plastics, especially the type used by Kadee to make the coupler body and shanks. It is a relatively hard plastic at room temperature and the when subjected to cold temperatures this will cause some brittleness. |
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 23 Dec 2003 : 22:14:21
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| Ah yes the famous coupler question....Well to cut to the chase we go back several months ago when the new metal couplers on the new USA passenger cars kept uncoupling.... At 10 pounds a car a 7 car train put alot of strain on those suckers and they kept uncoupling.. Solution was to replace them all with Kadee couplers and to drill a hole behind every coupler hanging trip bar and drop in a metal u shaped joiner (upside down). Now those babys do not uncouple. This is a fix that should work on any lash up. |
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Conductor
USA
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Posted - 23 Dec 2003 : 22:50:12
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| Why not go pin and link? |
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 24 Dec 2003 : 00:36:31
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On the LA County Fairplex RR where they sometimes run very long trains and they have to stay coupled they use the old hook and loop type....  |
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Engineer
USA
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Posted - 24 Dec 2003 : 04:54:21
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| hook and loop win hands down! |
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Railway Exec (Moderator)
1st Class Member
Canada
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Posted - 24 Dec 2003 : 06:09:30
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If couplers are properly installed - at the right height - then I have seen all of the popular makes undergo some tremendous stresses.
I saw a very lengthy train - perhaps 20-25 cars - make the 4% 150 foot long grade at Dave Goodson's and he uses Lionel couplers I think. KaDees are excellent and a train of 18 cars was pulled up the 3% grade around 5 foot radius curves at Fr Fred Mills. Howard reports that at 70 pound trains the KaDees tend to uncouple but not break. With Accucrafts, the AMS cars weigh over 4 pounds each ... a 27 car stock train would be well over 100 pounds ... and there were pics of such a train pulled by triple headed K series Mikados at Roger Cutter's this fall.
I have never heard anyone complain of the abilities of LGB hook and loop. In all, the choice of coupler really comes down to ... what looks best to your eye, how much do you want to spend, and how much extra work do you want to do. Only under the most extreme conditions will any of the couplers fail.
Regards ... Doug |
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Engineer
USA
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Posted - 24 Dec 2003 : 08:29:51
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I have to agree with Steve. If you are going for brute strength and not looks, then the hook-and-loop will always win. There are two ways of doing the hook-and-loop, symmetrical and asymmetrical. Symmetrical means all couplers have both hooks and loops, which is the strongest and most reliable, but a real bear to uncouple. Asymmetrical (hook on one end, hook+loop on the other end)is easier to use, but cars must always stay oriented the same direction or they can't be coupled.
IMHO Bachmann couplers are the worst for reliability. I use a mix of Delton, USA Trains and Bachmann couplers. The Bachmann cars must always be on the end of the train or the train will uncouple itself from the stress, usually because the Bachmann coupler droops untill it releases.
Jon |
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Foreman
USA
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Posted - 24 Dec 2003 : 09:46:53
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Since I run l-o-n-g trains on a regular basis, I can provide some insight to your question. When I say long trains, I'm talking 60-80 cars (and next spring, 100 cars). Since each car (with metal wheels) weighs three pounds, these 250 pound trains put tremendous stress on the couplers, especially when going up a grade. My railroad uses all Aristo-Craft knuckles. They are strong enough, none have ever broken. They stay coupled on uneven track, thanks to the tab on the bottom. Occasionally, a pair will pull apart without opening. These bad actors get replaced, or moved to the rear of the train where the stresses are less. Kadees, on the other hand, are more prone to breaking, due to the fact that they're smaller and there's less plastic in the clasping parts to absorb the forces. I can't evaluate the other brands, as I've never seen them used in trains of this length. And that goes for hook and loops as well. Next spring, I'll run a comparison test, with a few cars at the front wearing each brand of coupler, followed by my 100 car freights, and post the results. But keep in mind, its often better to put a mid-train helper engine halfway back in the consist to reduce coupler forces, just like the 1:1 guys do. I forgot to mention, with trains of this size, you MUST start, accelerate, slow and stop gradually. Stopping a 250 pound train suddenly is inviting disaster. Also, if you have dirty track, and the engines studder, the jerking will put even more stress on the couplers, and the bad actors will be more likely to pull apart. So, to run l-o-n-g trains reliably, you need clean tracks, wide radius curves, multiple engines, strong couplers, and lots of power. This is a whole different game than the typical 5-10 car trains that are commonly seen.
Tom Weaver |
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 24 Dec 2003 : 13:22:17
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The only reason I kept the knuckle couplers was the cars came with them. USA did not have a fix and there was no way for me to put on hoop and loop. I personally prefer hoop and loop but in this case there was no other way. |
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Old Curmudgeon
1st Class Member
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Posted - 24 Dec 2003 : 14:03:52
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Occasionally I get a Bachmann that has a problem.
But, the mods I do to all fixes the vast majority of unwanted uncouplings.
I replace the push-pin at the pivot with a #4 screw and a flat washer, removing the half-collar and filing flush with the coupler shank.
As long as you are certain the pin is fully dropped, I don't have problems unless you run over something, but then all couplers open if you push the lift-pin up.
Oh, and on Kadees breaking....it does not much matter if it's cold or not.
Seen it in "0" scale.
Happens.
Never had a Bachmann, Delton or Lional fail like that.
I use Bachmann on Bachmann, Lionel on LGB's, Delton on Delton, they all couple together at same height.
Oh, Doug, it's 28-34 loads up that grade every week, as long as it's dry!
TOC |
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Foreman
USA
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Posted - 24 Dec 2003 : 20:15:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Curmudgeon
Occasionally I get a Bachmann that has a problem.
But, the mods I do to all fixes the vast majority of unwanted uncouplings.
I replace the push-pin at the pivot with a #4 screw and a flat washer, removing the half-collar and filing flush with the coupler shank.
As long as you are certain the pin is fully dropped, I don't have problems unless you run over something, but then all couplers open if you push the lift-pin up.
Oh, and on Kadees breaking....it does not much matter if it's cold or not.
Seen it in "0" scale.
Happens.
Never had a Bachmann, Delton or Lional fail like that.
I use Bachmann on Bachmann, Lionel on LGB's, Delton on Delton, they all couple together at same height.
Oh, Doug, it's 28-34 loads up that grade every week, as long as it's dry!
TOC
Hi all,
Very new here, and when I assembled my first consist (a mix of Bachmann, Delton/Aristo Classics, and one LGB w/LGB knuckles), I noticed that the Bachmann and Delton are at close to the same height and seem to couple OK, but the LGBs are much higher (by almost 1/2 the height of the knuckle itself--maybe 1/4"?) than the other 2. I've thought of lowering the LGB, but the pin hangs lower than the others (even though the coupler itself is higher), meaning I'd have to shorten it to keep it from knocking against switches, ballast, etc.
Since switching to KDs is not an option at this time, any advice would be very much appreciated! Oh, and I read here that a light spray of paint can make the B-man's stay coupled much better. True?
Thanks,
Jay |
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 24 Dec 2003 : 21:18:38
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I have a video on my website with two of my circus 4-6-0s pulling 83 cars. I don't know the coupler type, but will find out. The stress on the couplers has to be terrific. The only other problem that developed was that the flanges on the inside wheels of the cars from about 20 to 30 position were being ground to a razor's edge (plated brass wheels). Un the middle of this mess are seven aristo heavyweights, so this is not a lightweight train.
Barry www.barrysbigtrains.com |
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Engineer
1st Class Member
USA
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Posted - 25 Dec 2003 : 07:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by arthur
Happy Holidays to all,
I hope this is a somewhat easy question to answer. What do you think as a same brand coupler pair, to have the greatest strength? The least likely to come apart on bumpy track, going fast, turns, long trains without uncoupling? Would you say it was Kadee or LGB hook and loop? Doesn't matter if prototypical or not. No... I do not have any problems or bad track, I am just curious.
Arthur
Hi Arthur,
I think for most people, any brand will work fine especially when they are mounted the same height and the track is level.
Its when you start to mix brands and your track is less than perfect and your curves are sharp that you start to have real problems.
I have experienced some problems with both Bachmann and Aristo knuckle couplers coming uncoupled but recent production of both brands seem to be much better.
Kadees are fine when you have wide loops and flat track but I find that they tend to be less desirable with sharp R1 curves and bumpy track (as you mentioned). Their smaller size gives them less tolerance than the huge LGB Knuckle Couplers.
For my money I prefer LGB (or USA) Hook & Loop for just about everything. They are the most tolerant about mismatched coupling heights and different brands and handle the tightest curves better than anything else.
When it comes to Knuckle Couplers, I like LGB best again because the over size means it can handle droopy truck tongues, mismatched mounting heights etc. better than smaller couplers and the simplicity of the drop down locking pin seems to work flawlessly.
There is also the fact that LGB Hook & Loop and Knuckle Couplers work best with LGB Uncoupling tracks.
Add to this the fact that ONLY LGB makes Rack Rail Locos and Rack Rails and Rack Rail Couplers.
If I had a layout with perfectly flat trackwork and wide curves I would probably have Kadees but for my layout LGB Hook & Loops have proven the most trouble free. I do not pull trains longer than 14 cars so I cannot testify as to which are the strongest.
quote:
hooks and loops... a real bear to uncouple.
Actually Hook & Loops are extremely simple to uncouple. Just take a flat piece of metal about 3" wide and slip it down between the loops and the hooks will instantly uncouple.
Regards,
Jerry |
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