| Author | Messages | |
bobgrosh
1st Class Member
Tallahassee Florida
Foreman
Posts:232
Send Message
 | | 10/14/2008 12:13 PM |
| I have on G scale 8 amp MRC in a drawer somewhere. Most decoders make the locos run much smoother when starting up. The MRCs actually made the locos run worse. I upgraded it and never used it in anything else. I also have HO and N scale trains. I've discovered a few other things about MRC decoders in my N scale locos. I think they all have basically the same code, as I see the same problems in all of them. I have stopped buying MRC decoders. Unknown to me, Athearn put MRC decoders in their top of the line, flagship, 4-8-8-4 Big Boy. I bought a N scale Big Boy two weeks ago. At $375.00 is is the most expensive loco Athearn sells. I did not expect them to put the cheapest piece of junk they could find in their flagship loco. One feature missing, and this is NOT just a NMRA recommended practice, it is a REQUIREMENT for DCC decoders: The decoder is supposed to perform an emergency stop (ignore CV04 deceleration) when you send a GLOBAL STOP out on the track. Well. I use the emergency stop button all the time. I get a phone call, I press the Emergency stop button and ALL locos stop. Press it again and all locos resume right where they left off. Surprise! Two hours after I bought the Big Boy home, I was running it and two other trains on my N scale shelf layout. Phone rings. I press emergency stop. The other two locos stopped. The expensive Big Boy with the MRC decoder just kept going. Worse, it no longer responded to any commands. Before I could get to the power switch, the Big Boy turned Killer. It rear ended a train pulled by my favorite Atlas SD60 and kept going. Out of reach, it accordioned 8 cars and then used the cars to shove the SD60 to the floor and turned my favorite baby into a five foot diameter assortment of broken parts. Had the Big Boy simply melted, smoked or crashed to the floor I would not be so upset. It was a poor runner anyway. But, it killed my favorite N scale loco. So now, I'm down TWO locos, The SD60, which can't be repaired, and the Big Boy, which I will never run again. I can put my own decoders in any G locos and most HO locos. For N, I only buy locos with decoders installed. MRC, and now Athearn N scale are two brands I will NEVER buy again. The only other N scale Athearn / MRC owner I know of sent one loco back for decoder replacement three times under warranty, and twice since. And Yes, I have asked nicely. A dozen emails and phone calls to Athearn and MRC is getting no place. It's a Bachmann shay / Tsunami pass the buck thing all over again. I would not have posted this without first giving them an opportunity to correct the problem. Don't even get me started with the other deficiencies I found in the decoder. | |
You'l find me out back, in the ALLY. | |
| Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Carlsbad (San Diego), CA
Engineer
Posts:1226
Send Message
| | 10/14/2008 10:21 PM |
| Please keep going Bob, it helps to know what things I will encounter, I have a few coming.
Regards, Greg | |
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site | |
| Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Austin, Arkansas
Foreman
Posts:451
Send Message
| | 10/15/2008 6:23 AM |
| Hi Bob, You made some very good comments. To keep things in perspective I don't think that anyone is promoting the MRC AD322 decoders as great decoders. Their prominent feature has been their great price of only $10.99 each (they are apparently now sold out). In my case I've used them for several projects for which they are very well suited: 1. I have a quantity of LGB 4135s type sound systems from the LGB sound cars. I buy the cars with the sound systems, sell the cars and keep the sound systems for a net sound system cost of about $50. These are analog chuff only sound units but I am happy with them. Rather than replace them with $300 sound decoders I can instead convert them to work both with analog track power AND DCC for about $12.50 per car which is about $5,000 less than sound decoders would have cost me. 2. Some of these sound units are going into Lionel 0-4-0's that cost me about $50 each. Rather than spend $100 on a $50 loco to get it to work with DCC I can instead spend $10.99 and get them to work under DCC. 3. Same thing with LGB 2-4-0's. For $10.99 I can get them to work on DCC and for another $12.50 I can get their LGB 4135s sound systems to work with DCC. Two LGB/Massoth decoders (one for the loco and one for the tender) would have cost about $200 which would have meant I would not have any 2-4-0's able to run under MTS. 4. I have some Aristo-Craft F1 ABBA's that I was not using. For only $10.99 each I can make them work with DCC ($44 for a ABBA set vs $400 or more to do it with "good" 8 amp decoders). 5. A friend had an old LGB diesel loco with perhaps 500+ running hours on it. Rather than spend a lot of money on an old loco we converted it to DCC for $10.99 and for $50 he added MTS/DCC capability with a MTS Central Station 1. Bob, I don't disagree with a word you said and I would NOT recommend these decoders for anyone who wants to buy a serious DCC decoder for DCC applications that involve important/critical operations. If I want a decoder to put in a LGB Mogul, Mikado, F7 or Forney it will be a LGB or Massoth decoder but for applications where price is the determining factor between a loco having MTS/DCC capability or not, a 90% cheaper decoder like the AD322 makes what was previously impossible now possible for me. Everyone needs to figure out what their minimum standards are and for some the AD322 will not meet those standards. Regards, Jerry | | | |
| Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Dewey, AZ
Foreman
Posts:482
Send Message
| | 10/15/2008 8:14 AM |
| Posted By Rod Fearnley on 10/13/2008 11:48 AM I think I must have just got the last four! They are now listed as no longer available. Jerry thanks for the heads up .
Rod
  
| |
 
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals | |
| Rod Fearnley
1st Class Member
Mid Norfolk. England
Foreman
Posts:127
Send Message
| | 10/15/2008 10:09 AM |
| Well done Stan. Between you, Greg and Bill Swindell, I should eventually be able to get them running with my Airwire.......................... Now just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, has anyone tried them with Locolinc? Rod
| |
 | |
| Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Austin, Arkansas
Foreman
Posts:451
Send Message
| | 10/15/2008 12:28 PM |
| Sure enough they must have found some more because they are once again showing as available: Jerry | | | |
| dbodnar
1st Class Member
Pittsburgh, PA
Brakeman
Posts:49
Send Message
| | 10/15/2008 4:18 PM |
| Good day - I received my batch of 14 decoders today and have put some notes on my web page (see: DCC Decoder Notes ).
I put an oscilloscope probe on each of the microcontroller's pins as I ran it through its paces and have discovered some if the pin functions. This information may come in handy as I plan on "repurposing" some of the decoders by substituting my own microcontroller for the one that is there now. The sound was much better than I expected. Almost good if you substitute a decent speaker.
So far I have tested two units with my home brew DCC controller (see: MiniDCC controller). I hope to have time to test them tomorrow with a serial LGB MRC controller. I'll let you know what I find. dave
| | | |
| Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Austin, Arkansas
Foreman
Posts:451
Send Message
| | 10/16/2008 6:29 AM |
| Hi Dave,
I am sure that everyone will be looking forward to the results of your testing. Some additional information (from MRC) about the MRC decoders: PROGRAMMING MRC SOUND DECODERS ON THE MAIN USING HEXADECIMAL CONVERSIONS FOR CVs 17 AND 18 Due to low programming track power in certain DCC systems, programming sound decoders on the program track may not be possible, especially trying to assign the decoder a four (4) digit address. This programming procedure has to be performed on the mainline, where more power is available for programming sound decoders. If your DCC system allows simple 4 digit address programming on the main or OPS mode programming, simply input the 4 digit address and press ENTER.A second step might be needed for certain sound decoders, which would be activating the 4 digit address by changing the value of CV29. Inputting a value of 34, a constant, tells the decoder to use the 4 digitaddress. Some DCC systems need to have CVs 17 and 18 programmed separately to assign the decoder a 4 digit address. You cannot simply split the four digit address in two halves and input these into CVs 17and 18. A conversion from decimal numbers to hexadecimal numbers is required. Once the hexadecimalconversion for the 4 digit address is performed, this number is then separated in two halves, converted back to decimal values and then inputted into CVs 17 and 18 respectively. This may sound very confusing so let us explain with an example. To perform this operation, you need a scientific calculator or the calculator accessory on your computer. Make sure the calculator on yourcomputer is set for the scientific mode. For example let’s say your 4 digit address is 1998.1. Using the constant number of 49152, add your 4 digit address to this number and convert it fromdecimal (DEC) to hexadecimal (HEX). You add 1998 to 49152, which equals 51150 +49152=51150] 2. Under the DEC setting, input the number 51150.3. Change the setting to HEX. You will get a hexadecimal number of C7CE, � decimal equalsC7CE hex]. 4. Separate this number into two sections of two characters each; in this case, C7 and CE. Thisgives you separate hex numbers for CVs 17 and 18 respectively. C7 goes into CV17, and CE goes into CV18, but these numbers must be converted back to decimal values. 5. Enter C7 into the calculator under the HEX mode, then switch the calculator’s setting back toDEC. You will get 199 [C7 (HEX) =199 (DEC)].6. Input the value of 199 into CV17.7. Enter CE into the calculator under the HEX mode, then switch the calculator’s setting back toDEC , you will get 206 [CE (HEX) =206 (DEC)].8. Input the value of 206 into CV18.This gives the decoder a 4 digit address of 19989. The next step is to go to CV29 and input the constant decimal number of 34. This number tellsthe decoder to use the 4 digit address, along with analog disable, 28/128 speed steps, and normal direction (locomotive forward). There are other constant values that you can input into CV29 to change the decoder’s parameters, please refer to your decoders instructions, or to our CV29 Table. Don't ask me to explain it (its Greek to me). Also:
These decoders do not have a reset cv
you have to reset the following cv's to get things back to address # 3 CV1=3 CV17=0 CV18=0 CV19=0 CV29=2 and...
Double clicking F0 [lights] mutes the sounds,
If not using the speaker, do not use any resistor in place of the speaker. you can run without the speaker and if space permits use the speaker with the sound off Sound decoders like the AD322 need a lot of program track power that regular dcc systems have a hard time with. Most of the time you have to program on the main, [if your system supports this type of programming]. A system, [if it only has 14 speed steps] should automatically change cv # 29 to "4" during normal programming. Regards, Jerry |
| | |
| dbodnar
1st Class Member
Pittsburgh, PA
Brakeman
Posts:49
Send Message
| | 10/16/2008 7:03 AM |
| Well, Jerry, the results are in for the Serial MTS Controller and they are not particularly good. The throttle works just fine and the motor operation is smooth but the sound does not operate properly. If I hit any of the function keys (1-9) the bell will operate but nothing else. My best guess is that the MRC decoder doesn't properly interpret the serial DCC data properly and it just takes the first part of each packet which happens to trigger the bell. Not a big deal but it would have been nice if it had worked.
I have access to a parallel MTS controller and may have an opportunity to test that someday soon - again, I'll post the results. All things considered the unit is very good for the price! Thanks for the tip.
dave
| | | |
| Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Austin, Arkansas
Foreman
Posts:451
Send Message
| | 10/16/2008 7:04 AM |
| Posted By bobgrosh on 10/14/2008 12:13 PM One feature missing, and this is NOT just a NMRA recommended practice, it is a REQUIREMENT for DCC decoders: The decoder is supposed to perform an emergency stop (ignore CV04 deceleration) when you send a GLOBAL STOP out on the track. Well. I use the emergency stop button all the time. I get a phone call, I press the Emergency stop button and ALL locos stop. Press it again and all locos resume right where they left off. Surprise! Two hours after I bought the Big Boy home, I was running it and two other trains on my N scale shelf layout. Phone rings. I press emergency stop. The other two locos stopped. The expensive Big Boy with the MRC decoder just kept going. Worse, it no longer responded to any commands. Before I could get to the power switch, the Big Boy turned Killer. It rear ended a train pulled by my favorite Atlas SD60 and kept going. Out of reach, it accordioned 8 cars and then used the cars to shove the SD60 to the floor and turned my favorite baby into a five foot diameter assortment of broken parts.
Hi Bob,
I am somewhat confused by this comment. With my LGB MTS operations when I press STOP on the remote the Central Station cuts all power to the tracks and it is not possible for anything to run. Even the caboose & coach lights go out. On the other hand I do not think I would trust even the LGB STOP and walk away from the layout. I may be mistaken but I think I have had the power go back on before I pressed STOP again. Perhaps this is a LGB rather than NMRA function because otherwise if the Central Station depended on the decoder to shut the locos off it might be possible that an analog loco (one is possible under MTS) could keep on running. In my case it is not a problem because normal operations are track power so as soon as I am done running MTS I switch to track power and be sure that the analog throttles are off. I even have a light that comes on warning me that MTS power is on the tracks. I try to avoid using the Emergency Stop because of the potential for gear damage if trains should have power suddenly cut off. I can see how the train momentum could put damaging stress on the gearbox. Regards, Jerry | | | |
| Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Austin, Arkansas
Foreman
Posts:451
Send Message
| | 10/16/2008 7:56 AM |
| Posted By dbodnar on 10/16/2008 7:03 AM Well, Jerry, the results are in for the Serial MTS Controller and they are not particularly good. The throttle works just fine and the motor operation is smooth but the sound does not operate properly. If I hit any of the function keys (1-9) the bell will operate but nothing else. My best guess is that the MRC decoder doesn't properly interpret the serial DCC data properly and it just takes the first part of each packet which happens to trigger the bell. Not a big deal but it would have been nice if it had worked.
I have access to a parallel MTS controller and may have an opportunity to test that someday soon - again, I'll post the results. All things considered the unit is very good for the price! Thanks for the tip.
dave
Hi Dave,
That is about what I expected under serial operations. I've been told that no US made decoders are serial capable.
On the other hand my friend with the MTS Central Station 1 (serial only) reports that he is quite happy because he has motor control, light control and sound (at least what he has is enough to make him happy). On the negative side of parallel operations I installed AD322's so far in one FA-1 and two FB-1's. The FA-1 and one FB-1 continue to work fine but the other FB-1 has developed a mind of its own. Sometimes it feels like running and works with MTS/DCC and other times it just sits there. The nice thing is that if I need to replace the decoder it will be an easy task to remove the old decoder and replace it with a new one just by unplugging and plugging cables. I'm seriously thinking about cutting the cable plug locking bits so the plugs do not lock into the receptacles (to make removing the decoders easier). I have a high tolerance level for what I am willing to accept from $10.99 decoders. Regards, Jerry
| | | |
| dbodnar
1st Class Member
Pittsburgh, PA
Brakeman
Posts:49
Send Message
| | 10/16/2008 11:22 AM |
| I rewired the circuit board a bit this afternoon to determine if you could trigger any of the sounds (bell, long horn,short horn, coupler) with a reed or other type of switch. The good news is that it can be done. The bad news is that you have to cut or lift four pins from the microcontroller to disconnect them from the sound circuitry. This is a very small surface mount device. For me this means working under high magnification - not one of my favorite things to do. As mentioned earlier, I found that pins 1 through 4 on the microcontroller operate each of the four sounds. Once the pins are lifted you can solder wires to the pads that were under the pins and connect them to switches that will activate he sounds. This could easily be done by reed switches or something similar. Each switch closure activates the sound only once. The bell must be held it to get a sequence of bell sounds as a brief connection just gives part of a bell sound. A latching reed switch could be used for that connection. I put a photo and some other notes at the end of the web page that I started for this decoder. Click here: Decoder Notes
Stay tuned! dave
| | | |
| Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Austin, Arkansas
Foreman
Posts:451
Send Message
| | 10/16/2008 11:45 AM |
| Hi Dave, The good news is that you may end up with a lot of people wanting you to customize their AD322 decoders for them. The bad news is that you may end up with a lot of people wanting you to customize their AD322 decoders for them. Cheers, Jerry | | | |
| Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Austin, Arkansas
Foreman
Posts:451
Send Message
| | 10/17/2008 6:50 PM |
| Today I came up with the idea of using the MRC AD322 decoders just to control the lights of the LGB 3080 series coaches I pull with the Moguls. These are almost all of the Moguls that have decoders but the current drain of the lights plus the high MTS voltage had me thinking twice about using the lighted coaches with MTS/DCC. What is unusual is that most of my layout is in the dark crawl space under my home so I can adjust the lighting to simulate anytime of day or night but I mostly prefer to run trains in semi-darkness with the buildings providing most of the light. That means that I run lighted coaches most of the time. I've tried it and I don't just like it - I LOVE it. I now have a MRC AD322 decoder in the first Mogul Passenger Train with the standard LGB decoder running the loco and sound plus an AD322 controlling the lights of the coaches (low speed = low light/low current drain). Eventually I may tweak it further to have a preset lighting level for the coaches. Then it hit me - I might not have enough AD322's for the coaches so I rushed to the computer and happily I was able to order another batch (they still show some left). Unlike some of the locos (especially double & triple headed) I am unconcerned about the DC peculiarities of the decoders because the polarity of the lights is immaterial as is any glitches in switching that polarity. I'm not suggesting that these are great decoders or that anyone should rush out and buy them but for me it has been interesting just discovering things I'm willing to do with MTS/DCC with $11 decoders that I would never have done with $100 decoders. If this keeps up I might even have to buy a Navigator to keep up with all the decoders I'm installing! Jerry | | | |
| Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Carlsbad (San Diego), CA
Engineer
Posts:1226
Send Message
| | 10/22/2008 10:05 PM |
| I got my 5 MRC decoders today. They are sensitive to dirty track (no surprise) and sometimes the sound does not start up properly if the power has been interrupted.
I ran the loco back and forth a few times to squish all the ants... then things were fine...
The MRC decoder DOES respond to the DCC stop command just fine, did it 6 times in a row, so the problems Bob was having with another MRC decoder are not problems with this one.
I spent more time pulling the 11 screws to open a USAT F unit than to hook it up for track, motor and speaker...
Put it on the main line.... called up loco #3.... went to programming on the main, changed the long address, then went to config mode (I am using NCE so much simpler) and enabled the long address, worked like a charm. I figure I may never have to use the programming track... if you can change the address on the main, then I would suspect the other CV's will be fine.
It was dark, so I did not do anything else, but I did honk the horn, ring the bell F3 did a short horn, F4 was some kind of coupler crash or air tank blowdown...
For 11 bucks, no problem...
Regards, Greg | |
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site | |
| Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Dewey, AZ
Foreman
Posts:482
Send Message
| | Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Austin, Arkansas
Foreman
Posts:451
Send Message
| | 10/23/2008 7:12 AM |
| Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 10/22/2008 11:23 PM Rod's 4 decoders should be on the big bird headed across the pond...... Shipped them yesterday for him... Mine haven't arrived yet. Thanks for your input, Greg. I'm going to try them with Airwire...
I keep hearing about Airwire and now about using it with decoders. I think I ran Bubbs's Hudson with Airwire but I was paying attention to (drooling over) the Hudson and the Airwire(?) just happened to be what made the Hudson go.
I guess I have to ask... What is Airwire? What's so great about it? How is it different from other remote controls? I thought it was just some sort of fancy Train Engineer. Thanks, Jerry | | | |
| Rod Fearnley
1st Class Member
Mid Norfolk. England
Foreman
Posts:127
Send Message
| | 10/23/2008 9:16 AM |
| Here you go Jerry, all the info you need about Airwire here. http://www.cvpusa.com/doc_center/2008_LglSz_AIRWIRE_FLYER_sec.pdf Rod
| |
| |
| Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Austin, Arkansas
Foreman
Posts:451
Send Message
| | 10/23/2008 10:48 AM |
| Posted By Rod Fearnley on 10/23/2008 9:16 AM Here you go Jerry, all the info you need about Airwire here. http://www.cvpusa.com/doc_center/2008_LglSz_AIRWIRE_FLYER_sec.pdf Rod
Hi Rod,
I looked at their web site and phoned them so at least now I have a better understanding of their systems. Thanks, Jerry | | | |
| Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Carlsbad (San Diego), CA
Engineer
Posts:1226
Send Message
| | 10/23/2008 3:09 PM |
| If you could interpret "fancy train engineer" as the difference between the train engineer and DCC, you would be right in there.
Basically AirWire has their own receiver (for the motor control) that also will "output" DCC commands for a standard DCC sound decoder.
So you can add on a DCC sound decoder and program and operate it like it was on a DCC system.
QSI also has an add-on receiver that turns the QSI system into the equivalent of an AirWire "brand" receiver PLUS a DCC sound decoder. The add-on receiver is $80. In most cases this is less expensive than the equivalent (A Phoenix and the AirWire brand receiver).
Now, what Rod has up his sleeve is an even cheaper combination, an AirWire brand receiver with an $11 DCC decoder.
One piece of advice Rod, the sound from the MRC decoder is nowhere near in the class of the QSI. The bell and the horn are nice, but the diesel roar is just plain weird, it sort of throttles up ok, but at constant speed, it almost sounds like a muffled steam chuff.
I only fired it up last night when I got home from work, will wring several of them out this weekend (will install all 5 of them).
Regards, Greg | |
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 |
|