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Thursday, January 08, 2009   You Are Here: Forums

 


Subject: Rail Expansion
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gwschreyerUser is Offline

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11/19/2008 8:29 PM  
CWR tends to be laid while  hot and expanded.  When it cools and starts to contract, it cannot.  It goes into tension and actually stretches and reduces in cross section for as long as it is stretched.

- gws
Greg ElmassianUser is Offline
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11/19/2008 8:57 PM  
PK, I learned from R.J. (aceinspp), who was a track inspector for the 1:1... ask R.J., I am still in training... I have though, spent a lot of time looking into people's expansion problems, especially in Arizona, and it's interesting how people get started, and the eventual evolution...many people start with the logic that screwing the track down to something will stop it from moving. But, the power of expanding metal is pretty strong, it takes a lot to resist it. (I have a background in applied physics).

When R.J. started instructing me in how the 1:1 railroads worked, it made sense with the physics of the problem, but he had to hit me over the head a few times in the course of my training!

Regards, Greg


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pkUser is Offline


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11/20/2008 9:52 PM  
Well, some people have gotten close to being right on the money.
 
So what it boils down to is that the dynamics of the track structure in 1:1 and your favorite flavor of GRR scale are completely different.
 
Expantion rails seem to do the trick on your GRR and those other guys need to be sure things are anchored up and the ballast section is in good order.
 
Regards,
pk
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11/21/2008 2:27 AM  
Here's some info: the coefficient of thermal expansion for brass is 19 parts/million per degree Celsius. For an example, let's calculate the effect of a 100 degree Fahrenheit temperature change on brass track. 100 degrees F is equivalent to 55.6 degrees C, so our formula would be 19 X 55.6 / 1000000 which equals .0010564 feet per foot of track. For 100 feet of track, the expansion would be 0.10564 feet, or about 1 1/4 inch.
 
Stainless steel is less of a problem as its coefficient of thermal expansion is just 17.3. A 100 degree F change on 100 feet of stainless steel track would be about 1 5/32 inch.
 
Aluminum is a little worse; it's coefficient is 23. A 100 degree F change on 100 feet of aluminum track would be a shade over 1 1/2 inch.
 
Again admitting I have no real outdoor experience, these numbers seem small to me. An inch of movement in 100 feet of track from deep frost to scorching sun? I would think that keeping a few rail joiners unclamped would allow for this kind of movement.  I ask someone who has had an actual problem with thermal expansion tell me how flawed my conclusion is!
 

This got me thinking a bit..

 

So I put some numbers into a calculating program for circles posted a while ago in the forums (‘cause I’m too lazy to work it out manually)
 
 

http://www.1728.com/circsect.htm

 

If you have 100’ of brass straight track, ie 1200” and it expands to 1201.25” while fixed at both ends then the center will need to move 23.7” sideways to accommodate the extra length.  ( Enter Chord 1200, Arc length 1201.25, result is calculated segment height )

 

If we assume that loose joints take up 95% of the extra length leaving an expansion of .0625” to deal with then the sideways movement needed is still 5.3”.  I’m guessing  this could take the form of 6 ish 1”  wiggles..?

 

So we now have photos, experience and calculations to show the scale of the problem.

 

Shoot away if I have the numbers wrong.. 

 

Cheers

Neil

aceinsppUser is Offline
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11/21/2008 6:42 AM  
PK you would  be surprised how GR are as close to 1 to 1 RR as far as track the world. They also use expansion joints in CWR.    As RRs learned about how CWR reacted they came up with new solutions  to laying and adjusting.  However RR still have sun kinks or better known now as thermal expansion due to various conditions same our GRs. Later RJD


RJD Chief Engr D & S RR
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11/21/2008 7:10 PM  
RJD,
 
I'll need you to show me evidence of a 1:1 scale expantion joint used in CWR.  I have never seen or heard of such a thing before.  Same for the track anchors mentioned earlier.  I have never seen a track anchor, lots of rail anchors, but never a track anchor.
 
Regards,
pk
aceinsppUser is Offline
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11/22/2008 6:57 AM  
PK: Rail anchor is the correct term.  Don't recall seeing mention of track anchor.  Yes Expansion joints did exist.  In my many high rails trips on the RRs across the country I did  see expansion joints most notable at approaches to bridges. Unfortunately I'm unable to locate my photos as they where taken back in the 70s.  One such location that comes to mind where they were in place was on the C&NW just west of Council Bluffs, Ia heading to Fremont, Ne. Later RJD


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Greg ElmassianUser is Offline
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11/22/2008 5:43 PM  


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NTCGRRUser is Offline
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11/22/2008 6:13 PM  
Greg
this is the first I have seen photos of 1:1 , where is this??
thanks

Marty Cozad
North Table Creek GRR
Nebraska City, NE

Is it "REAL" or just 1:29 th

Greg ElmassianUser is Offline
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11/22/2008 6:25 PM  
Ahh, did not look... google "railroad expansion joint"....

Greg


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jebouckUser is Offline

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11/22/2008 6:57 PM  
The pic originated from here:   http://www.railway-technical.com/index.shtml
 
It looks to be Euro track. Maybe England.
 
jb
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