| Author | Messages | |
parkdesigner
1st Class Member
Los Angeles, CA
Brakeman
Posts:47
Send Message
 | | 08/28/2008 7:46 PM |
| "God, I should have been a lawyer."
WOW Todd - and a VERY bad one if you were. VERY BAD.
You stated in your above post: "Under Vital statistics it states, "Dimensions are very close to published drawings for the prototype." Again, no one has identified which prototype. You are drawing the conclusion that he is comparing it to the D&RG prototype, and not some drawing of a 3'6" gauge engine."
ok... yes sir - your words - but please, if you will, read aloud from the first line of this same paragraph...
What's that? Can't read? Well, allow me to read it for everyone:
"Plastic, electrically powered model of the C-16 class (formerly class 60) locomotive of the Denver & Rio Grande Railroad."
Nope - "no one has identified which prototype."
I'd suggest rereading the entire article before making your next post.
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| East Broad Top
Moderator
Centennial, CO
Conductor
Posts:616
Send Message
| | 08/28/2008 7:57 PM |
| And that after your supporting commentary on 1:29.
Obviously, you don't THINK people care.
Dave, you're misinterpreting my statements. I said many people don't care. When you look at reader surveys, look at what people are running on their railroads, and listen to people on these forums, it's quite apparent that there are a good number of people in large scale who simply want to run cool looking trains in the garden without thought to scale, era, or prototype. There are also many people (though seemingly a slightly smaller number) who are more scale oriented, sticking to one, perhaps two scales. An even smaller number stick strictly to one scale, one railroad, etc. As I've always said, the large scale hobby consists of a very wide spectrum of interests.
Really surprising after page 109 of the June 2008 issue:
"What this isn't is 1:22.5 scale () or #1 scale (), the accurate scale for standard-gauge trains running on 45mm track".
You said it there, but you gave this one a "walk".
Dave, read--and quote--the whole thing. That statement is based solely on the fact that the locomotive being reviewed (Piko's diesel) was labeled on the box as 1:22.5. Clearly it is not, being a standard gauge prototype running on gauge 1 track, whose "correct" scale should be 1:32. I never indicated that being neither was a negative, merely that it wasn't either. I commented because there was a discrepancy between what was advertised and what was delivered. You'll notice I mentioned in my earlier posts that such discrepancies do merit comment.
The rest of the paragraph reads as follows:
"If proper scale/gauge ratios are important to you, you'll find this locomotive oversized. If running trains that look visually compatible together (particularly with LGB's European-style rolling stock)[is important], then you might consider this an addition to your roster."
In the case of the C-16, there was no discrepancy between the advertised scale and what was delivered, and as I've already explained, no reason for comment. You're under no obligation to agree with my reasoning, though I would expect you to respect it.
The last paragraph of the review:
"On the whole, I'm impressed with this locomotive. It seems to me that, based on this and Piko's "Taurus" locomotive (reviewed in the February 2007 issue of GR), that the company appears to be focusing on bringing European standard-gauge prototypes to market, perhaps taking a page out of Aristo-Craft's and USA Trains' early playbooks in making products visually compatible with other manufacturers' offerings. It worked well for American companies and I suppose it might work well for Piko. Having said that, I'd prefer that they keep reading that playbook and accurately state the scale of their models on the box."
No where do I say it should be 1:32, just that it should be accurately labeled. If inventing 1:26 works for Piko, then so be it. The waters can't get any more muddy.
Later,
K | |
Tuscarora Railroad
Friends of the East Broad Top | |
| Zonk
Brakeman
Posts:53
Send Message
| | 08/28/2008 8:24 PM |
| Ya know...this is absolutely rediculous. Five pages in less than a day about an issue like this...why cant people post this much about layouts or models or anything "good" in the hobby. Something i really liked about this forum was that there was no bashing or stupid arguments unlike most others. but now...just like the rest here it is. this is the kind of garbage that gets other great forums shut down. people sometimes need to simply AGREE TO DISAGREE and move on. If you're not happy...well then go. Don't let your negativity flourish over everyone else and get them worked up. Whats worse is that, as it was stated, this is what ruins hobbies. This is what pushes people away instead of drawing them in closer. And guess what, sad to say a lot of the hobbyists are dying off. And since some of these people are only thinking about themselves its not getting passed on. Yes, enjoy the hobby for what you make of it, but dont ruin it for everyone else.
Matt | | | |
| Curmudgeon
Foreman
Posts:433
Send Message
| | 08/28/2008 8:41 PM |
| I'm having fun, aren't you, Matt?
It's so much fun to flip Kevin sh.......stuff.
He reacts so predictably!
But, since it is a Baldwin C-16 built for the D&RGW, as stated, the gauge is not right for the engine.
Sorry. | | | |
| markoles
1st Class Member
Lancaster, PA
Conductor
Posts:857
Send Message
| | 08/28/2008 9:00 PM |
| I agree with you Matt on needing something else to focus on. (you missed some awesome threads way worse than this one way back when. You missed the original scale wars and the demise of LSOL the first time.)
You guys need to focus on something else. How about helping me with my track plan?! See the track forum. I put in pictures and everything!! So far, I've got some good ideas, but certainly, with all the folks coming back to see what's happening here, there's got to be at least a couple of other ideas!! Come on you slackers, I made crazy suggestions for all your railroads!! Marty- remember the flyover track for your new passenger yard?!
Dang. Where's Greg Esselman's Derail picture.
Mark
PS Dave, sure is nice of you to be so easy on K when he finished your review of the K-27... Kevin- see what happens why you try to help a guy out?!!
  
PPS Ducking and running for cover.
PPSS I can't remember the last time I had so much fun on MLS!! | |
Mark Oles
Millersvillanova Railroad, Lancaster, PA | |
| lownote
1st Class Member
Arlington VA
Conductor
Posts:565
Send Message
| | 08/28/2008 9:17 PM |
| He does--he acts predictably like a reasonable, rational person, which he is, as well as a decent likeable guy who is also a great modeler.
| |
Evading the Midas touch of expertise
http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/magic/westover/ | |
| Curmudgeon
Foreman
Posts:433
Send Message
| | 08/28/2008 10:01 PM |
| | Except he picks up cars to uncouple them..... | | | |
| East Broad Top
Moderator
Centennial, CO
Conductor
Posts:616
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| | 08/29/2008 3:13 AM |
| Except he picks up cars to uncouple them.....
Not for very much longer. Accucraft's got a new 1:32 operating knuckle coupler that uses the same pocket as the Kadee 820. They're spot on for a 3/4 scale coupler in 1:20.3. Accucraft isn't sure when they'll be available separately, but they will be in due time. Then, even I can join the ranks of the "pull the pin" crowd.  They do couple with the Kadee #1 coupler.
Later,
K | |
Tuscarora Railroad
Friends of the East Broad Top | |
| docwatsonva
1st Class Member
Hendersonville, NC
Foreman
Posts:104
Send Message
| | 08/29/2008 6:23 AM |
| Don't get me wrong, I love this site and admire all the work by the people who use this site and all that can be learned by reading the postings that appear here. I hope this site continues forever (great job Shad).
However, I wonder who would be willing to guess at what percentage of garden railroders actually look at this site let alone care about what is written here. | | | |
| yardtrain
Brakeman
Posts:16
Send Message
| | 08/29/2008 6:43 AM |
| | Writing to Garden Railways magazine about these issuses would be more effective. | | | |
| Dennis Paulson
1st Class Member
Chandler In
Foreman
Posts:149
Send Message
| | Curmudgeon
Foreman
Posts:433
Send Message
| | 08/29/2008 10:59 AM |
| Posted By East Broad Top on 08/29/2008 3:13 AM Except he picks up cars to uncouple them..... Not for very much longer. Accucraft's got a new 1:32 operating knuckle coupler that uses the same pocket as the Kadee 820. They're spot on for a 3/4 scale coupler in 1:20.3. Accucraft isn't sure when they'll be available separately, but they will be in due time. Then, even I can join the ranks of the "pull the pin" crowd. " border=0> They do couple with the Kadee #1 coupler. Later, K
Don't ever let it be said you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
You will ALWAYS be remembered on the CCRy as the "Sky-Hook" for your creative ways of uncoupling.
Now all we gotta do is get you to address some of those other issues, and maybe, by the time you're old enough to shave, you'll be all set! | | | |
| Cougar Rock Rail
1st Class Member
Canada
Foreman
Posts:132
Send Message
| | 08/29/2008 12:10 PM |
| Hello all,
Interesting discussion!
Here's a possible suggestion, based on what Gartenbahn Profi does when reviewing these oddball 1:27 standard gauge locos:
They recognized that the manufacturers weren't aiming for 1:32, or 1:22.5, but rather something in between, so they call it Gauge 1.5. That's because they aren't Gauge 1 (1:32) or Gauge IIm (1.22.5) but something in between, usually 1:27 or so in the case of something like an LGB Genesis or Piko loco. That way in their reviews they don't just harp on about the improper scale, but rather they acknowledge the manufacturing target and focus their efforts on reviewing operating characteristics etc. Now given that they are competition for Kalmbach, I suspect it might be hard a hard pill for them to swallow, but it's a suggestion.
Keith | | | |
| East Broad Top
Moderator
Centennial, CO
Conductor
Posts:616
Send Message
| | 08/29/2008 1:27 PM |
| There was--around 10 or so years ago--an attempt to classify each scale with its own moniker "LS##", such as LS32 for 1:32, LS20 for 1:20, etc. To my thinking, it made a lot of sense. It got away from the generic "G" moniker, focusing instead on "Large Scale," and the numbers were a pretty straightforward way to identify each product by its scale. A few manufacturers used it for a short while, but it never caught on. I'd love to see something like that get going again, but at least we've seen the manufacturers (for the most part) settle down on the scale front, so that a start. They're also much better about identifying the scale on the box itself, so that also helps the consumer in the hobby shop. I think that's the best we can hope for at the moment.
Don't ever let it be said you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
You will ALWAYS be remembered on the CCRy as the "Sky-Hook" for your creative ways of uncoupling.
What'd you expect me to do? I couldn't cut through the packing tape on those boxy couplers you use. Fortunately, the "This End Up" label on the side showed me which way to lift them. 
Now all we gotta do is get you to address some of those other issues, and maybe, by the time you're old enough to shave, you'll be all set!
And leave you deprived of something to disagree with? I'm not that creul. If I wanted to inflict that much psychological damage, I'd simply make you go back to track power, or if I was feeling particularly nasty, make you drive a Chevy.
Later,
K | |
Tuscarora Railroad
Friends of the East Broad Top | |
| Curmudgeon
Foreman
Posts:433
Send Message
| | 08/29/2008 1:48 PM |
| Well, you know me well enough to know you won't MAKE me do ANYthing, especially drive a General Misunderstanding.
I do like the photo you took in the review, however.
Those gold drivers really set off the sparkly-blue paint on the boiler and fire-engine-red cab....
Makes me want to repaint all my stuff to match. | | | |
| Mik
Indiana, Pa
Foreman
Posts:360
Send Message
| | 08/29/2008 2:39 PM |
| For those who object to the scale (1/24) of the c-16 I have a suggestion. Do what I'm doing.... Put a Bug Mauler cab, and shortened tender (as well as wider pilot and running boards) on it.... Then you'll have a 1:22 or 1:20 model of NKP (no known prototype, lol), and nobody can say it's out of scale anymore.
But what do I know? I play with toy trains.
As for GR... I quit getting it about a year ago. Too many ads and not enuff "meat and taters"to justify the expense for me.... I liked looking at what others have done, the plant section and generally picking up ideas, but wading through all the shtuff I didn't want and/or couldn't afford to find it was rather annoying. | |
Mik
Unsupervised children will be given espresso and a free puppy | |
| Steve Stockham
1st Class Member
Foreman
Posts:337
Send Message
| | 08/30/2008 12:46 PM |
| That was GREAT!!!! (I haven't had this much fun reading five pages of "discussion" since the "super socket" debacle last year!) Ah, I should've known that it would be the old scale/gauge debate... It's been about five years since the last flare-up so it was due.
I'm actually NOT going to take sides this time (*gasp!*) as I see this issue as a moot point. Rather, I will address the title (revised) of this thread and comment that the decline of readership in Kalmbach's RR publications may indeed be influenced in part due to the increased "commercialization" of the various publications. This not only includes the massive quantities of ads but the tendency for publications to be "pressurized" into printing reviews and articles writen as favorably as possible leading to justifiable criticism.
I'm still PO'd at Bachmann for doing what they did to Kalmbach by trying to dictate who does their reviews and WHAT is said in the reviews! That GR no longer seems to have TOC doing reviews just means that their credibility has dropped significantly. This is not meant as a criticism to Marc or Kevin for their reviews but it DOES put said reviews under a cloud of "suspicion" right from the start. Sorry, it's not fair but that's what happens when objectivity is called into question by the capitulations of the editors to pressure from manufacturers advertising depts.
I continue to subscribe to GR as it is a magazine directly concerning our hobby! Do I get as much out of it as I used to? Maybe not but then I also have all of the LS websites to fill in the gaps. Well, I said I wouldn't take sides so I will stop here. PLEASE feel free to continue to rant and rave for another couple of pages but just remember that NOTHING we do outside is completely to scale! Now that I've cooled off from mowing, I will now retire to the layout where I can start pulling all the prototypically scaled 1:1 bindweed.  | |
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| Great Western
The English Riviera, Torbay, Devon
Foreman
Posts:270
Send Message
| | 08/30/2008 2:48 PM |
| I think the pages of this thread in many ways emphasize what a difficult job a magazine, and particularly its Editor, has to produce something of high interest to all. A virtual impossibility I would say. I think our hobby would be poorer if GR was no longer available. I am sure many newcomers find GR very helpful: I have, and maybe many are drawn to the hobby having bought or been given a recent Issue.
Many times over the years I have seen interminable wrangles over scales and gauges in N, 00/HO, O and all their variants. Nothing is ever achieved other than more entrenchment in belief by those unwilling to see or accept another point of view.
I have always enjoyed railroading as a hobby and welcomed the publications that helped me or gave pleasure reading them. We all know that the adverts are the life blood of magazines but also the food of a magazine is its content, much of which we modelers provide. The Editor of GR's UK counterpart is constantly asking for more copy for his magazine. | |
regards,
Alan Lott (G1AEU)
http://picasaweb.google.com/FSigs52
http://www.paignton-steamrailway.co.uk
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Use what talents you possess: the woods would be very silent if no birds sang there except those that sang best.
Henry Van Dyke | |
| Pete Thornton
1st Class Member
Annapolis, MD
Conductor
Posts:543
Send Message
| | 08/30/2008 3:34 PM |
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| Curmudgeon
Foreman
Posts:433
Send Message
| | 08/30/2008 4:10 PM |
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