Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Carlsbad (San Diego), CA
Engineer
Posts:1225
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 | | 07/20/2008 10:44 AM |
| Dominic:
I'm sure the problem with your loco is just one loose solder joint. It's not a huge issue to fix. Also the Mallet does NOT pick up from the tender, even though there is wiring in the tender, it's typical.
A bad solder joint here and there is just part of the game. If you want to improve the running after you get your new unit, see the tips on the Mallet on my site.
Even though it is espoused that there are enough wheels for pickup with the drivers, improvements can be had by making the tender pickups work too.
Regards, Greg | |
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site | |
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Rayman4449
Gardner, KS
Foreman
Posts:467
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| | 07/20/2008 10:53 AM |
| That is a misconception with the Mallet that there are plenty of power pickups but the only drivers that reliably make contact with the track are the center two axles (#2 and #3). So if he was missing the power transfer strips (as I have pictured in the writeup on my website) on just the #2 and #3 axles then he could have the engine go dead as he described. I agree and have learned that ensuring the tender power pickups are in place and wired in are a good idea for this engine. I now wire up the second truck to pickup power as well.
Most likely though, the replacement engine will run fine and you should have no issues without any additional modification. So don't worry too much about our techincal discussion here. (Some of us here look for ways to make things better and more reliable.  )
Raymond | |
Want MTH DCS Protosound 2 in a non-MTH engine? I can help.
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Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Carlsbad (San Diego), CA
Engineer
Posts:1225
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| | 07/20/2008 11:05 AM |
| Raymond, I'd like to hear more about your point on which drivers make reliable contact. I had not heard this before. (It makes sense though in my surprising discovery that adding tender pickups helps).
Also, a fundamental problem can occur when the power pickup system is not functioning properly, which can be the little "finger" in the metal retaining clip on the gearbox. See my section on "prime mover basics" in the TRAINS...MOTIVE POWER...ARISTO section...
Regards, Greg | |
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site | |
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Rayman4449
Gardner, KS
Foreman
Posts:467
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| | 07/20/2008 11:20 AM |
| Hey Greg,
I started having power cut out issues on one of my engines converted to DCS and started the process of checking it out. Did the continuity checks and all wheels were technically transfering power. When I put it on the track and looked really closely at the first and fourth axles I found that they actually can rock side to side as they are designed to do and that the cause was the #2 and #3 axles were riding just a tad lower and pushing the others up just ever so slightly. This was on both drive sets and if I remember correctly my other 2 mallets were like that as well.(but weren't and still don't have any issues on those two.) Once I saw that I understood more why I was having issues. It's not an issue for me that warrants modification of the engine to change the way it rides but I went ahead and added the tender pickups back in as I had originally deleted them (as this was the easiest and quickest way to resolve without alot more work and time spent figuring out exactly what was wrong) and it now runs perfect.(which is all I was looking for so.. " border=0> )
I never officially posted anything about it, perhaps I should post this on my site as well. I probably will when I have time. May do a quick video to show how the wheels rock back and forth.
One thing that I don't think most realize is the Dash-9s do this too. They have axles that aren't fully in contact with the track AND this is a BIG reason why some make such a loud metal clapping noise on the track (i.e. is so noisey). I have spent time on some of my D-9s trying to even out the gear boxes to elminate this wheel slap against the rail to quiet them down but it gets so time consuming I just gave up. I did a video and was going to do a writeup on it but never did. One nice thing about the USA trains steamers and MTH Big Boy and eventually the Triplex, they have independently sprung alxes so they all make contact with the track getting maximum tractive effort and smoothes them out over bumps such as switch frogs. But in the end it's not really that big a deal or necessary, my Mallets run great and enjoy them just as much as my other engines.
Raymond | |
Want MTH DCS Protosound 2 in a non-MTH engine? I can help.
www.rayman4449.dynip.com
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Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Carlsbad (San Diego), CA
Engineer
Posts:1225
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| | 07/20/2008 11:33 AM |
| Interesting, I found that the rubber "pad" is under one of the gearboxes, usually the lead or trailing one, and the rest are left "loose". I think I indicate which gearbox is "fixed" on my site.
One thing about the tender pickups, while they are wired, normally they only pick up when in the battery position, but that position often disconnects the drivers, so in MOST mallets, it's an either-or proposition.
While George may not like hearing this, this IS a common situation, which I have validated by asking EVERY person I have ever encountered with a Mallet and pickup problems.
I don't get worked up about this, because I think the Mallet is a great value, and it's easy to check out with an ohmmeter.
Regards, Greg | |
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site | |
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Rayman4449
Gardner, KS
Foreman
Posts:467
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| | 07/20/2008 11:57 AM |
| I agree, the Mallet is a GREAT value and folks should buy first worry about any issues later.
Raymond | |
Want MTH DCS Protosound 2 in a non-MTH engine? I can help.
www.rayman4449.dynip.com
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TheLordsServant
Brakeman
Posts:48
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| | 07/20/2008 1:13 PM |
| | Well it says right in my manual that wheels, including the ones on the tender pick up power. What I do know is that nothing but the front drivetrain is picking up power, and I'm quite sure that the rear drivetrain should be doing SOMETHING to assist in picking up power. I'm quite sure that the mallet is a wonderful locomotive, and I just got unlucky enough to get a lemon. | | | |
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Torby
1st Class Member
North Chicago 'burbs.
Engineer
Posts:1664
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| | 07/21/2008 6:56 AM |
| | Indeed. Yours was quite abnormal. Very strange. | |
 "If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about."-- C. S. Lewis | |
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TheLordsServant
Brakeman
Posts:48
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| | 07/22/2008 6:03 PM |
| | Finally got it shipped back to Aristo today, I'll keep you all updated | | | |
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nick s.
1st Class Member
Upstate NY
Conductor
Posts:647
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| | 07/22/2008 7:14 PM |
| Good luck with the loco, by the way my nephew barrowed my truck last week and snuck down to aristocraft in NJ to pick up some stuff he bought but wouldnt tell me what, other than he gave me an early birthday present to try to smooth things over and i now own and god help me A B/O mallet  so let the fun begin, i hope mine runs right out of the box. but i'm not holding my breath but maybe as this is a 2nd run loco maybe they fixed some of the issues with them, we will see...
Nick... | | | |
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Rayman4449
Gardner, KS
Foreman
Posts:467
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| | 07/22/2008 7:17 PM |
| Yeah yeah, we know... You put on fake eyeglasses and rubber nose and went in and picked it all up yourself. Admit it! 
You're turning to the dark side, we can see it.
Raymond | |
Want MTH DCS Protosound 2 in a non-MTH engine? I can help.
www.rayman4449.dynip.com
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TheLordsServant
Brakeman
Posts:48
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| | 07/25/2008 8:04 AM |
| | Well, it finally arrived at Aristo, so I get to stay in the holding pattern until they call me. Hopefully it isn't too long. | | | |
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TheLordsServant
Brakeman
Posts:48
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| | 07/26/2008 8:57 PM |
| | And, so that when I get my replacement engine, what is the proper break-in period? I seem to remember from the last time I was into G scale, which was about 2 years ago, that it was 1 hour at a steady speed with a light load. Just wanted to clarify, as I very well could be remembering things totally wrong. | | | |
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Rayman4449
Gardner, KS
Foreman
Posts:467
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| | 07/26/2008 10:48 PM |
| Just run them and don't worry about a break-in period. I've had enough of these engines apart and looked at enough gears to firmly believe there is no reason to mess with break in periods of running them backwards etc. It's not going to matter one way or the other whether you 'break them in' or not. All too often we enter into what I call the 'techno-blable zone' where irrelevant details are blown way out of proportion (usually multiple ones together) and given WAY too much significance... so much so that by the end you could almost believe that the micro sparks from your train wheels really could impact the earth's magnetic field on the opposite side of the planet and screw up Chin Long's coffee pot in Bejing. Mechanically the tollerances with all this stuff is not THAT precise and there's nothing about these plastic gears that running them for a certain way for 1 hour is going to make a real difference in the long run and as John Maynard Keynes said, "In the long run we're all dead."
But seriously, do what you feel most comfortable with doing and if you really feel that running them under a light load for x number of hours could help it last longer, then do it and put your mind at ease.
Just my 2 cents.
Raymond | |
Want MTH DCS Protosound 2 in a non-MTH engine? I can help.
www.rayman4449.dynip.com
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Rayman4449
Gardner, KS
Foreman
Posts:467
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| | 07/26/2008 10:59 PM |
| And just to make sure that I don't offend anyone, I'm not picking on any particular person. We get to the point above through collective input and discussion. I'm not saying there is one person who gets us there so please don't anyone take personal offense.
Raymond | |
Want MTH DCS Protosound 2 in a non-MTH engine? I can help.
www.rayman4449.dynip.com
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TheLordsServant
Brakeman
Posts:48
Send Message
| | 07/27/2008 7:00 AM |
| Thanks for all the opinions everyone, I was told over on the Aristo forum that I didn't observe the proper break-in procedure, so I was wondering if that was, in fact, true. I do remember that I never really "broke in" any of the engines I have, and they're both around 5 years old now and have seen plenty of use, and neither one has a problem currently, or has ever had a problem. So, I think I'll take your advice, Raymond, and simply run it.
Thanks again!
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Torby
1st Class Member
North Chicago 'burbs.
Engineer
Posts:1664
Send Message
| | 07/27/2008 8:02 AM |
| Proper break in?
I usually just run the loco slowly with a light load for an hour or two before I put any load on it. It's not as big an issue as it used to be. | |
"If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete, in simplicity with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We are dealing with Fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to bother about."-- C. S. Lewis | |
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Madstang
1st Class Member
Bellevue, NE
Foreman
Posts:202
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| | 07/27/2008 3:44 PM |
| Power pick ups...OH yea right that comes into play when you use track power!
Havent had that problem for...lets see...about 4 years
I do have a question though, did they fix the problem with the engine shutting down when you breached the 3 amp threshold...Raymond gave me a super fix with that one and still have not had that problem since the fix...thanks Ray!!
Just kidding with the above..track power has its functionality with certain senerios.
Bubba | |
Bubba'sPlatte River RRBellevue, NE | |
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Rayman4449
Gardner, KS
Foreman
Posts:467
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| | 07/27/2008 6:27 PM |
| Hey Bubba,
No I doubt it as Aristo has those polyfuses in place to keep from burning out the board traces on their power transfer boards in the event of some sort of short or overamperage situation. This could happen under battery or track as the power goes through that rear board (which has circuit board traces even under battery. They would want them to stay in place.
Now I'm honestly not poking at battery power, but the only times I've ever seen engines go into shutdown because of the 3 amp polyfuses are when someone was running under battery. Joe was having fits with his engine shutting down when he had his open house here in KC some time ago and the only instances I've read about it happening were with battery folks. I think the reasons are twofold: Mainly 1) battery uses are typically only utilizing one plug (at the back of the engine) and are powering everything off that one plug. Well that all goes through one 3 amp polyfuse. Someone running track power would have that total draw go through two, one at the front (front truck) and the second through the rear (truck pickup). So track users are going to come in way under the trip amperage because of the spread load.
I'm glad our chatting helped! Thinking on this more... I think I would take and add one, maybe two more smaller amp polyfuses in parallel with the existing one to allow a little more capacity but still offer some protection. If you want to try it, you can get some from http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RXE-065/RESETTABLE-CIRCUIT-PROTECTOR-0.65-1.3-AMP/-/1.html
The other thing you could do (which would save having to order anything) would be to run a + and - jumper from the back board (pre-polyfuse) and run it to the front (pre-polyfuse) that way you could spread the amperage load across the two fuses (going through two now instead of one) and still have some protection. In fact, I think Aristo should probably wire them from the factory like that to save you guys this issue.
I agree, battery has it's applications in some situations, if you are running limited numbers of engines and limited run times. It gets expensive real quick as you start adding # of hours run and engines. I calculated it out the other day, based on the life expectancy of the $70 aristo lithium ion battery packs (1 hr for a Dash-9 per the Ed's thread going on Aristo:http://www.rayman4449.dynip.com/Battery_Run_Time.jpg), for me to run my 5 dash-9s 10 hours like I did the other day it would have taken a total of 50 batteries (plus with 50 chargers @ $26 each) coming out for a grand total outlay of $7680. (And I had my 3 Big Boys running on the other loop all day too.) A 700ft all Stainless steel layout with feeders and split-jaws would only cost about $4613 with track on sale at today's prices. Since you don't need to clean SS track (I don't mine) I prefer the cost avoidance and hassle of dealing with battery. It all depends on what you are wanting to do.
Raymond | |
Want MTH DCS Protosound 2 in a non-MTH engine? I can help.
www.rayman4449.dynip.com
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Madstang
1st Class Member
Bellevue, NE
Foreman
Posts:202
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| | 07/27/2008 8:28 PM |
| I really don't ned the protection as I rarely pull more then 10 cars with the mallett.
Any way if the boards do fry I can gutt it anyway and removing all the needless wiring and placing in a Air-Wire board.
Remember the days before all the new fangled boards and such the Aristo Pacifics had NO nothing inside except for the wiring from the pickups and the motor...NO fuses and they ran lake a champ..I really feel all they have added did nothing to the engines except for add problems with like the fuses and such.
So protection...don't need it I can hard wire ANYTHING!
BUT I could not find the poly fuses at All Electronics..thanks for the link.
I did run the jumpers on my Dash-9s and it solved the shutting down problem.
And if you use the Aristo batts it would run into money....BUT using the milwaukee batts, and having a couple of 3 bay chargers would not cost that much and tool batts fit perfectly inside the tenders..I ran all morning on just 2 batts..about 4 hours....of cource it was my USA Hudson...just one engine..not many people run more then that..usually...I think Marty runs 2 MAYBE 3 Dash 9's with out any cars that have lights and he runs without any smoke, as it would look out of place, but he routinely gets 45 minutes per charge
If you run the trains on the tool batts without smoke and lights they seem to run for a couple of hours..if you run lights and smoke they run approx. 45 minutes..sooo you would need at least 10 maybe 12 tool batts fully charged to run all day with your 5 Dash-9s...BOY I feel I am king s--t when I run my 2 GP-9s for 10 hours...I can't amagine 5 Dash 9s'...so I agree in your situation track power is better for you.
You know the ole track vs battery power thing, but this is by no means meant anything other then friendly conversation...I bow to your stand on track power
Bubba | |
Bubba'sPlatte River RRBellevue, NE | |
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