Semper Vaporo
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Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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 | | 10/12/2008 4:42 PM |
| Posted By NTCGRR on 10/12/2008 9:48 AM I did not "say" I had one, I just need the info... If I had one, at this moment very strongly thinking of saling it. If its this much trouble with who and what is right based on each persons exsperience.
My dear Mr.Cozad...
Maybe you didn't "SAY" you had one, but you did "WRITE" that you have some AC oil coming but have not found any butane... now if you don't actually HAVE one, you are certainly implying that one is in the offing for your stable!
CONGRATULATIONS for coming unto the LIGHT! Although you may be sensing some "bickering" here, it is nothing like the "Dark side" where folk "bicker" over the proper battery voltage, how many cells, what controller, what charger, what sound system, what, what, what, what, what, what... or those that live in the Dark Ages and "bicker" over how to clean the track, what controller, what remote system, what track voltage, what transformer, what sound system, what, what, what, what, what, what... Tain't no differnent than any other area of this hobby... "My way" is better than Sinatra's any ol' day! | |
 C. T. McCullough
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
SA #37469
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NTCGRR
1st Class Member
Nebraska City NE
Conductor
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| | 10/12/2008 6:31 PM |
| Please don't call me MR, makes me feel like I'm Jerrys age.
If I have a steam up here I was thinking it would be nice to have the needed supplies on hand. Now that we will have an "steam up" office track here (thanks to Rodney)) maybe even Mr Dwight would come. | |
 Marty Cozad
North Table Creek GRR
Nebraska City, NE
Is it "REAL" or just 1:29 th | |
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Semper Vaporo
1st Class Member
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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| | 10/12/2008 6:59 PM |
| Posted By NTCGRR on 10/12/2008 6:31 PM
Please don't call me MR, makes me feel like I'm Jerrys age.
If I have a steam up here I was thinking it would be nice to have the needed supplies on hand. Now that we will have an "steam up" office track here (thanks to Rodney)) maybe even Mr Dwight would come.
"Mr." is mearly a sign of repect... although age is sometimes used as an excuse for demanding respect, for me it is something that is accorded to all, regardless of age, until the person discards it by words or actions. At this point, since you are taking the time and making the effort to ease the burdens of those "in the light" to run their locos on your RR, then the level of respect to be accorded to you has gone up considerably! Just might have to start calling you "Sir". | |
C. T. McCullough
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
SA #37469
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Dwight Ennis
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Milpitas, CA
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Chris Scott
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Sonoma, CA
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| | 10/13/2008 1:21 AM |
| Posted By Charles on 10/11/2008 8:41 PM
I am sure the thread will list many other offerings to satisfy the needs of safe locomotive operations but a good reference point is:
Harry Wade's article-
Steam oil by Harry Wade
Also an introduction the Southern Steam Trains web site has quite an excellent reference- Southern Steam Train reference
Harry's article is a very good starting point for info on steam oils. When I first read it some time ago the info and particularly data in the article's table raised a number of questions for me; the Flash Point numbers seemed a very low range from 271F - 322F (per Footnote #1). So I started digging into various manufacturers current product offerings and specs. What I found is that Footnote #2 "Flash Point in F" when the data is really in degrees C. This is significant and to show the effects, converting 271C - 322C become, 520F - 612F. So it seemed to me that considering steam at 60PSI equals a temp of ~293F, this changed the perspective the data table provides of steam pressure/temp to Steam Oil properties.
Also, the Viscosity Index (VI) data in the table is also different for current products but the differences are minor. All current Steam Oil products available continue to have VI above 90, typically in the range of 95-99 (the ANSI VI spec range of 40-100 for cylinder oil products). At these values steam oil maintains its lubricating properties (what's called the 'lubricating wedge') at pressures and temperatures well above anything with our small scale steamers. An example of current data from Chevron's Cylinder Oil data Sheet:
Chevron Cylinder Oil W ISO 460 is recommended for moderate service applications where steam pressures will not exceed 150 psi and temperatures vary between 171°C to 204°C (340°F to 400°F).
Chevron Cylinder Oils W ISO 680 is a higher viscosity lubricant recommended for steam pressures up to 300 psi and temperatures from 218°C to 302°C (425°F to 575°F).
These values are typical for other manufacturers steam cylinder oil products.
There is more of Harry's article info in need of being updated. Though I've collected a great deal of data on all this and where to find the info, I'm sure not an ME to rewrite Harry's article or write a new one. Maybe this is an opportunity for someone so the article ties to today's products. I emailed Harry but he said he's moved beyond writing, or rewriting, articles.
I asked Cliff at Accucraft what ISO their steam oil is and he told me theirs is ISO 680 (they buy it by the barrel and repackage it).
One other thing that caused me a lot of head scratching was trying to figure out what Flash Point really meant when it came to industry standards and testing for the product's spec. There are between 4-5 different ASTM Standards test methods for determining Flash Point (for example whether the FP test is done in the presence of flame, spark or no ignition source). It's difficult to identify which test a specific cylinder oil product was tested to. Although there is commentary on the ASTM and ANSI Standards websites on which test or tests are most comonly used.
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John J
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| | 10/13/2008 5:36 AM |
| Posted By Dwight Ennis on 10/12/2008 8:13 PM maybe even Mr Dwight would come.
Actually, I'd like to Marty and have wanted to for some time. It just hasn't been in the cards yet. ![<img src=]() " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/smile.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" /> Money, available vacation time, etc. all figure into the equation. I will make it though - one of these days. ![<img src=]() " src="http://www.mylargescale.com/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/mls/emoticons/smile.gif" align="absMiddle" border="0" /> Retirement is only four years off (assuming the bottom doesn't fall out of my retirement savings).
Get a new Deck  Maybe your luck will change  It would be great to see you at Marty's | |
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aceinspp
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| | 10/13/2008 7:08 AM |
| | Marty stick with what is recommended. From the post else where I'd say your close to having a live steam. I still have the two bottles I bought 2 1/2 years ago it goes a long way. I have found the Aristo oil to work the best in the Mike. It seems to run soother than using other types of steam oil. As far as finding the fuel any good sporting goods foutlet shall have what you need. Plenty of adapters available for the various cans. Later RJD | |
RJD Chief Engr D & S RR | |
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DKRickman
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Salisbury, NC
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| | 10/13/2008 3:51 PM |
| Just to stir up some more controversy here..
It would seem that steam oil is a mineral oil with 4% tallow blended in. What would happen if one took the correct proportions of, for example, Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil and melted beef tallow (both of which I happen to have on hand) and mixed them? Would you have a decent quality steam oil? For that matter, what about using the tallow straight? | |
Kenneth Rickman - krickman1@carolina.rr.com
Salisbury, NC
If at first you don't succeed, use a bigger hammer! | |
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aceinspp
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| | 10/13/2008 3:57 PM |
| | Got to remember the water has got to mix with the oil. I tried the Lucus oil mixed with animal fats and just to thick and makes the engine run sluggish. Later RJD | |
RJD Chief Engr D & S RR | |
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Semper Vaporo
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Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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| | 10/13/2008 4:00 PM |
| Posted By DKRickman on 10/13/2008 3:51 PM
Just to stir up some more controversy here..
It would seem that steam oil is a mineral oil with 4% tallow blended in. What would happen if one took the correct proportions of, for example, Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil and melted beef tallow (both of which I happen to have on hand) and mixed them? Would you have a decent quality steam oil? For that matter, what about using the tallow straight?
The original lubricant on real 1:1 steam engines was straight tallow, hence the name "Tallowpot" for the employee that went around the engine pouring tallow into the various spigots for that purpose.
Tallow tends to BURN at temperatures that are just slightly above steam at pressures around 150psi. This is why the original engines soon needed some compounded oils as the pressure (and temperatures) went up. The questions now would be: Does Mobil 1 have detergents and other additives in it that would be harmful to a STEAM operated engine? Would it mix readily with tallow? And how "pure" is you beef tallow? I supposed that if the tallow is well refined it would not be a problem to run just with it on a small relatively low pressure (non-superheated) steam locomotive. If you superheat it, you get charred solids that would be very harmful to the innards. | |
C. T. McCullough
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
SA #37469
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DKRickman
1st Class Member
Salisbury, NC
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| | 10/13/2008 4:45 PM |
| As to the purity of the tallow - I don't know how one measures such things, but I can say that it's fresh cooked by yours truly, strained off a batch of beef stock, separated, and stored in the fridge while looking for something to use it on.
Oil additives - that's a good point. Somewhere around here I have, or at least had, some 30W oil with no detergents in it, to be used for lubricating an air compressor. Perhaps that would be a better choice.
I haven't tried mixing the oils. Heck, I don't even have a live steamer to try it in. For me, it's merely an academic question at this point. That, and I hate mail-ordering unless I absolutely have to. I'd rather make things myself, or buy them locally. | |
Kenneth Rickman - krickman1@carolina.rr.com
Salisbury, NC
If at first you don't succeed, use a bigger hammer! | |
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Taperpin
Brakeman
Posts:57
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| | 10/14/2008 1:18 AM |
| Heres my penny worth.
Chain Saw gets chain oil.
Steam engine gets Steam Oil.
simple really.
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Semper Vaporo
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Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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| | 10/14/2008 1:40 AM |
| | I wonder, though... I have FIVE GALLONS of Chevron 460 Steam Cylinder Oil... can it be used in my electric Chain Saw? | |
C. T. McCullough
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
SA #37469
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John J
Moderator
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| | 10/14/2008 6:06 AM |
| The company that makes the Air compressors for our printing presses states that one is to use a 30 w NON DETERGENT oil in the compressor. I had trouble findind a NON DETERGENT oil. Went to 4 different auto supply stores. Here on the New River & Western I use a 30 w or so Moble 1. Now what does this have to do with Live steam. Nothing. If I had a Live Steam engine I would use the oil the manufacture said to use. | |
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JEFF RUNGE
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| | 10/14/2008 7:05 AM |
| | John, the reason yo were not finding NON-Detergent motor oil in your local AUTO parts store is automobiles and light trucks stopped using it 50 years ago! a better place to look is a lawn equipment service location. It is still used in engines with "splash lubrication systems" where there is no filter so no reason to suspend the dirt in the oil. | | | |
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lvst4evr
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| | 10/14/2008 6:17 PM |
| | Talked to Charles B. about 1-1/2 yrs. ago & he said Green Velvet was a "good one"! I called G.V. & talked to the owner; Bill I think. He told me the formulation contained tallow (animal fat) & that was used in full size locos!!! That coupled with Charles B's always good advice sealed my choice. I don't have any Aster or other high priced locos, just a measely Aristo mike & an Accucraft Ida but I still want the best lubrication for my locos & also many years of fun running them! That said, use the best steam oil you can purchase! It's really cheap insurance against early failures! I ran the Accucraft oil I bought with my Ida, in the Aristo mike & when it ran out, I've been using the G.V. oil. Also Royce at Quisenberry has a good steam oil. Call him on the weekend & he'll fill you in. Jim Spanier | | | |
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Mik
Indiana, Pa
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| | 10/14/2008 6:48 PM |
| | Oil, even steam oil, is (relatively) cheap... Hard parts are pretty expensive. -- Pick another place to cut corners. | |
Mik
Unsupervised children will be given espresso and a free puppy | |
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Dr Rivet
1st Class Member
Purcellville, VA
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| | 10/14/2008 7:26 PM |
| ALL
There is a rumor that Jeff Runge is opening a "Home For ABUSED live steam locomotives". He has openings for both old and new locomotives that have been fed poor quality alcohol,leading to crusted wicks; water produced from home dehumidifiers with all manner of unidentifyable impurities that have put crud in the boiler and steam passages; running gear lubricated with 3in 1 oil and sprayed down with WD40 that turned to goo; and MOST OF ALL, lubricated with any number of substances that did not work over the long haul. AND ALL this ABUSE just because the owner spent $2,500 to $6,500 on a LIVE STEAM pet and wanted to scrimp on its basic food and medication until it died from neglect. By the way, the owner saved $22-$40 over the LIFE of the LIVE steam locomotive.
If you can't afford to maintain your railroad Cadallac [or Ferrari], go get a Prius with BATTERIES.
END OF RANT | |
Jim Stapleton
SA# 2.71828
IE&W Railway | |
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aceinspp
1st Class Member
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| | 10/14/2008 7:43 PM |
| | Taperpin I'd have to agree totally with ya .Later RJD | |
RJD Chief Engr D & S RR | |
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JEFF RUNGE
Foreman
Posts:150
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| | 10/14/2008 7:55 PM |
| | Please contact me off line for shipping information for your ABUSED live steamer... | | | |
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