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Slipped Eccentric
1st Class Member
N.E. Pennsylvania
Brakeman
Posts:84
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 | | 03/13/2008 8:00 PM |
| Tac, no criticism intended on my disagreement. It does look like, if this engine IS built to look like any prototype, 'Green Goddess' could be it. Thanks to everyone for the pictures/guesses.
Jon, Brit, Andrew, thnaks for the kind words too. I just wish the engine were staying with me, but I'm sure the owner will have many enjoyable runs with it.
Now on to the Soft Solder vs. Hard Solder discussion.
Posted By tacfoley on 03/12/2008 11:51 AM
Dear Mr Eccentric - you wrote - ...and I've even seen recent boilers built, and passed, on the other side of the pond...'
Bearing in mind that I am not a skilled craftsman like you, merely a dabbler in steam models, I am very interested to learn where you saw soft-soldered boilers built and passed. I built my first boiler, a small one for 'Rob Roy' in 1960, and that was brazed and silver-soldered with two grades of solder.
Apart from a rather dodgy repair to a Mamod boiler, that did not need to be certified, I have never seen a soft-soldered boiler 'built, and passed', in my life, and I was 62 last week.
We have four certified boiler testing engineers in my little group, and not a one of them has ever seen a soft-soldered boiler offered for test in the UK - and by the way, one tester builds full-size steam road locomotives, as well as 2/3, 1/2 and 1/3 scale, to the design patented by his great-grandfather in 1897. Additionally, talking to a boiler-builder for the Gauge I Association, he remarked that he would run a mile if he saw such a thing. I'd be right there alongside him, I assure you.
If in UK, please let us know where you saw this taking place. We might be quaint and rather odd by your standards, but we ain't stoopid.
tac
Southern Federation of Model Engineers
7.25" Gauge Society
I admit, Tac, very poor wording on my part and I do apologize for that. The boiler was Silver Soldered and then Caulked with "Soft Solder" (Keep in mind when I hear the words soft solder in brings to mind a low melting point). I was Reading this page www.baggo.copperstream.co.uk/me/locos/25inch/helen%20longish/helen26.htm and in particular this section :
"Some thought was then given to the side stays. I had already decided to use 1/8" copper rivets for the stays which will be threaded 5BA and screwed through both the inner and outer wrappers. The ends inside the firebox will have brass nuts fitted and caulked with high melting point soft solder (Comsol). I think it would be virtually impossible to silver solder these inside the firebox without the use of Oxy-Acetylene equipment which I do not have access to. I had originally planned to soft solder the outer heads of the rivets as well but I reckon it will be fairly easy to silver solder these instead judging by the ease with which I managed the foundation ring."
I do note later in the page that he mentions that the "Comsol" (a name I'm not familiar with) melts at 300*C. With quick glance at the Suppliers' page (or manufacturers', I'm not sure which) www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx, and given that he doesn't mention any specific alloy/name I was not able to find which product this gentleman used.
One of the problems is that someone may find a solder with a highly listed melting point and call it good. They do not take into account the temperature range in which the solder is not yet solid (Solidus-the lower temperature range) and when the solder actually flows as a liquid (Liquidus). A silver bearing solder (That I'm assuming the mentioned Comsol Is based on this found on the above Suppliers' web page) that "melts" at nearly 300*C (280*C in this case www.acmeref.biz/Kpublic/Documents%5Cstaybright&staybright%238.pdfcould warning, this is a .pdf file) have a solidus of 221*C. Even though saturated steam at a Pressure of 65 P.S.I. is at a temperature of 148*C (From here www.efunda.com/Materials/water/steamtable_sat.cfm), there is always the possibility of something happening (water running just a little low, running down grade and accidentally exposing the crown sheet), the temperature rising and bringing that particular joint above the solidus temperature, even briefly, and disturbing the joint. This may cause nothing to happen, it may cause nothing more than an annoying small leak, or it could possibly make a leak big enough to scald someone. I do doubt, especially in boilers this size, that anything would develop that would cause serious injury, but you never know. Call it raising a panic or even being overly cautious, but I wouldn't want, as I said in an earlier post, to take the risk.
Looking at the suppliers' page again, the Comsol has a solidus of 305*C. This would account for an unheard of steam temperature of 1,335 P.S.I., and I doubt any normal running with a good amount of water in the boiler would ever let any of the joints up to this temperature. This, should, give many fine years of satisfactory service. I wouldn't fault your boiler inspecter and yourself from distancing yourselves from ANY higher pressure boiler entirely soft soldered, riveted or not.
Also, I beleive there may be a cultural divide on the use of this type of culking in a boiler. I've never heard of anyone over here using anything but silver solders of different melting points to build a boiler (not a silver and a silver bearing solder). Once again, if I'm wrong here please correct me. Then again it could just be my own personal feelings and I could be publicly making a fool of myself for standing up for something with a shaky premise. And I do still stand behind my decision on this particular boiler as again, I know nothing or the previous history of the boiler or any of its construction. Based on what I saw of the soft solders' behaivior during the repair attempt it did not look trustworthy.
Please, also keep in mind that I am not trying to be combatitve about any of this. If I come off as that again I apologize. There's nothing wrong in my eyes with a good discussion and if someone come out of it learning something new (I have so far even just researching for this post) then it was a disussion worth having. I may have missed some key points so if there is anything that I didn't touch on please let me know.
Justin Koch | | | |
| tacfoley
1st Class Member
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| | 03/14/2008 6:18 AM |
| Dear Mr Koch - many thanks for you detailed and informative post on solders and their use - I certainly learned a lot from it. Please realise, though, that there are very great many live-steam modellers over here in ALL gauges who would be horrified at the thought of building a boiler using anything other brazing and varying MP grades of silver solder, even for caulking.
The model that you are rebuilding was in all probability built some time after WW1 and before WW2. Your effort to build a new boiler for it using modern constuction methods can only be praiseworthy, and I congratulate you on your effort so far.
As for being offended, please don't worry about it, I was not in any way the slightest bit put out by your post, only trying to find out where you say these dodgy soft-soldered boilers here in UK so that I can stay well away. Bear in mind that over here ALL boilers that may be used in a public place are required to have a test certificate - we have just done our 'Romulus' boilers here at my local steam club, and even our teeny G1 boilers are required to be tested every so often.
No doubt Mr Pullen can put me right there.
Best wishes
tac
www.ovgrs.org
Secretary RMSRS | | | |
| Semper Vaporo
1st Class Member
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Engineer
Posts:1536
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| | 03/14/2008 8:10 AM |
| | In ALL discussions of "toy" boilers, it really needs to be restated about the difference between "solder" and "Silver Solder". Way too many home "enthusiasts" that may grab the ol' spool of electrical 60/40 solder and a short section of chrome sink pipe and try to make a boiler, if there is not a CONSTANT discussion of safety. Sometime people just don't "THINK" about what they are doing. | |
 C. T. McCullough
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Le 18:22
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| Havoc
Brakeman
Posts:58
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| | 03/16/2008 4:48 AM |
| Nobody here want to notice that this boiler does not rely on soft solder to stay together? It is riveted! Those rivets are what is keeping it together, not the soft solder. And before someone starts again how unsafe that is, keep in mind that this was the way real boilers were build: riveted and chaulked. You could remove all the solder and steam it it would not desintegrate. Leak as hell probably but it would be safe if the safety valve is working. This is not a dodgy construction. Maybe it isn't a contemporary.
It is really worrying how people turn off their brains when they read a few words and then assume the rest without taking in all the facts. | | | |
| Slipped Eccentric
1st Class Member
N.E. Pennsylvania
Brakeman
Posts:84
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| | 03/16/2008 10:52 AM |
| Tac, I can only hope that the vast majority of the hobby is aware of what solders are approprite. And that those will let the minority know before an issue arises. I am glad so far that this seems to be true. Thank you for a a calm discussion and the kind words. I only worry about how things are taken as sometimes tit's all to easyo take the written word on a message board in the wrong context or in the wrong way.
Semper, Again a good point. "Safety First!" was a consant motto in the larger scales (to the point that it was alway printed somewhere in my Modeltech magazines as a constant reminder) and there's no reason not to keep the practice going.
Havoc, at this point all that I'm going to say is that it looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't know where you're getting the idea that "Nobody here want to notice that this boiler does not rely on soft solder to stay together?". If you'll look at my 6th repy you'll see that I'm admitting the soft solder is not adding any mechanical strength, and then in my 20th reply I made this statement "may cause nothing to happen, it may cause nothing more than an annoying small leak, or it could possibly make a leak big enough to scald someone.". I would like to know where you saw anybody state that this boiler would "desintegrate" due to a failure of the solder? And, no, this is not contemporary construction, as far as the U.S. is concerned. While we genereally do not require inspections on boilers this small i have heard of it and if the boiler contains soft solder or even if the owner cannot say if it is or isn't soft soldered it may cause it to fail relegating the engine to a mantle.
Also, the references that I have make no mention of caulking with solder on a full size boiler. The one "Steam It's genreation And Uses" by the Babcock &Wilcox Company Copyright 1955 refers only to the ASME codes which only allow for all steel welded boilers so I think that it is safe to assume that caulking was not allowed by this time. My other reference I cannot find at the moment, but it pre-dates this book and I distinctly remember it mentioning that the caulking was performed by using a round nose chisel along the joints and around the rivets (which is why if you look at an older riveted boiler you may see a line aound the bottom of a rivet head where it contacts the boiler plate). If solder caulking was allowed on boilers in Europe i would be genuinley interested to know.
And to summarize:
Will a properly riveted copper boiler with a higher melting point "Soft Solder" fail catastrophically? Most likely not.
Will a higher melting point "Soft Solder" ever get to a high enough temperature to melt in a boiler operated by someone who is properly trained? Most likely not.
Is the use of "Soft Solder" as a caulk looked down on in the U.S.? Yes | | | |
| Pete Thornton
1st Class Member
Annapolis, MD
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| | 03/17/2008 8:43 AM |
| Justin,
Congratulations on keeping your cool while all around are melting/flaming... | |
 | |
| Slipped Eccentric
1st Class Member
N.E. Pennsylvania
Brakeman
Posts:84
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| | 04/06/2008 9:21 PM |
| Well its been a little while but finally made some more progress. Have the throttle all planned out as well so hopefully things will go pretty quickly now.
The front flue sheet was flanged and turned
For a nice fit in the boiler barrel
The Firebox sheets were flanged and formed
And then the parts were rivited and silver soldered together
There are still some rivits that need touching up, but I'll do that when I solder the flues or the stay to the top of the firebox. | | | |
| rbednarik
1st Class Member
Mt. Holly, NJ
Foreman
Posts:248
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| | 04/06/2008 9:27 PM |
| Justin,
Looks great as always! Should be a ferocious steamer with that deep firebox. | |
-ryan
SA #1361 | |
| tacfoley
1st Class Member
Conductor
Posts:575
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| | 04/07/2008 2:38 AM |
| Beautiful work, Sir, well worth keeping in a journal on 'how to do it properly'.
Looking forward to the next instalment.
tac the Griper
www.ovgrs.org | | | |
| Alan in Adirondacks
1st Class Member
Glens Falls, NY
Foreman
Posts:123
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| | 04/07/2008 5:07 AM |
| Justin,
Beautiful work. Thanks for the post to keeping the rest of us updated.....
Best regards,
Alan | |
Alan Redeker
SA #17 | |
| David Rose
NJ
Foreman
Posts:158
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| | 04/07/2008 8:17 AM |
| Justin,
Nice work. The hole pattern for the flues kind of looks like the smile on our faces when your run your K-27 coal fired engine!
| |
David Rose
http://www.FortWildernessRR.com
SA #62 | |
| Slipped Eccentric
1st Class Member
N.E. Pennsylvania
Brakeman
Posts:84
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| | 04/07/2008 9:06 PM |
| | Thanks guys, glad everyone enjoys it all. The engine should prove to be a nice easy steamer, though some of the firebox's depth will be removed after the final fitment. Should bring a lot of smiles with this one as well, I am re-working the exhaust to provide a stronger draft so hopefully she'll bark unlike her bigger cousin. Also thinking about doing some experimenting on my K. If I do I'll post up the results. | | | |
| deWintonDave
Passenger
Posts:8
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| | 04/12/2008 11:04 PM |
| Posted By Slipped Eccentric on 03/11/2008 8:46 PM
Anyone have an idea what this is?
I think I've seen something like it in a stack of old magazines that I'm working my way through, I'll need to check through them. I'll let you know if I come up with something.
Dave. | | | |
| tacfoley
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| | 04/13/2008 3:48 AM |
| You could always send a photo and request to the editor of the UK's 'Model Engineer' magazine.
They are always posting piccies and requests for identification of older models, devices, tools and contrivances in the editorial pages of this very long-standing publication.
Since it remains my opinion that this model originated in the UK, where LBSC came from, it is more likely that you'll find the answer to your question there, rather than in the USA.
My $0.02.
tac
www.ovgrs.org | | | |
| Slipped Eccentric
1st Class Member
N.E. Pennsylvania
Brakeman
Posts:84
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| | 04/16/2008 9:51 PM |
| Thanks Dave, if you fimd anything I'd appreciate it. Tac, I know this engine came from England or somewhere in the U.K., but I imagine if it were seriallized in a magazine someone would remember it. I agree more with your earlier guess that it's most likely freelance. At any rate I've got the throttle pretty much done and ready to install. The first picture shows the entire assembly from the front sheet (left) to the backhead (right).
The actual throttle is internal and is a simple needle valve. The hole in the body will face will face upwards to act as the drypipe.
The next picture (sorry for the blurriness again) is of the front end of the throttle taken apart.
The ring around the pipe will be soldered to the front flue sheet. The bushing on the front of the pipe then bolts to this with four 2-56 screws and will eventually have a gasket. The superheater tube then goes into the front of the whole assembly with the nut sitting to the left of the picture. The superheater pipe will have a tapered ferrule thats seats inside the bushing with the hollow nut pushing the ferrule against the seat, similar to the way the brakelines on an automobile assemble.
Hopefully this will make it relatively to get the throttle out if work ever needs to be done to it. | | | |
| Dwight Ennis
Moderator
Milpitas, CA
Engineer
Posts:1596
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| | 04/16/2008 10:32 PM |
| Justin - looks great! I have a couple of questions if I may. First, Kozo recommends using EasyFlo 45. One of the reasons he mentions is that the melting point and flowing point are very close. Have you used this stuff?
Second, what torch are you using? I'm looking at various models for just this sort of work. I currently have the Smith Little Torch Oxy-Acetelyne rig. It works just fine for everything I've done up to now, but I haven't been silver brazing boilers either. I see that they make a heating tip for it. What torch are you using if I may ask?
Third, what are you using to pickle after brazing?
Thanks.  | |
Dwight Ennis
Milpitas, CA
SA #21
http://www.SantaCruzLumberCo.com
 | |
| Slipped Eccentric
1st Class Member
N.E. Pennsylvania
Brakeman
Posts:84
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| | 04/17/2008 9:58 PM |
| Posted By Dwight Ennis on 04/16/2008 10:32 PM Justin - looks great! I have a couple of questions if I may. First, Kozo recommends using EasyFlo 45. One of the reasons he mentions is that the melting point and flowing point are very close. Have you used this stuff? Second, what torch are you using? I'm looking at various models for just this sort of work. I currently have the Smith Little Torch Oxy-Acetelyne rig. It works just fine for everything I've done up to now, but I haven't been silver brazing boilers either. I see that they make a heating tip for it. What torch are you using if I may ask? Third, what are you using to pickle after brazing? Thanks. " border=0>
Thanks Dwight! And questions are always welcome. I tried looking locally for EasyFlo45 but never found it. So instead I use Harris Safety-Silv45 ( http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/consumables/alloys.asp?id=30 ). I've never used the EasyFlo so I cannot compare the two, but the Harris product works well for me. The only bad thing is that it does have Cadmium in it so ventilation is a must. They do have a Cadmium free version though.
For my torches, I bought an oxy-acetylene kit that included a cutting head and a few different sized tips. For the majority of my solder I use a #2 tip similar to this http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=357541&WT.svl=357541. When it gets to the point of soldering together larger assemblies I swap to a big rosebud tip similar to this http://www.airgas.com/browse/product.aspx?Msg=RecID&recIds=6932&WT.svl=6932. I've been able to solder from very small to very large parts using only these two tips, though sometimes if its only a small detail part I'll use a plumbing torch with MAPP gas. I've heard people not reccomend and oxy-acetylene torch as it can put too much heat in one spot and can melt the copper. If you're careful while you're learning you'll see how the metal reacts as it heats up and that shouldn't be a problem though. I only have issues if I'm tired or pushing myself at this point.
My pickle bath is a 10% solution of Sulfuric Acid in water. I picked up the acid at the auto parts store. Depending on how some parts are assemebled (the flanged and riveted firebox for example) I'll assemble it, pickle the parts and then apply the flux and solder to make sure I get a nice clean joint. | | | |
| Dwight Ennis
Moderator
Milpitas, CA
Engineer
Posts:1596
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| | 04/17/2008 11:30 PM |
| Thanks a lot for the info Justin. I have some experience with oxy-acetylene rigs - both the small one I use at home and full sized versions I used at work. I just found out that Smith makes a rosebud for my Little Torch. I think I'll pick one up and try that first since I already have everything else for it.
I also appreciate the tip on where to obtain sulfuric acid. I was wondering where to get that stuff. Never even thought of an auto parts store. | |
Dwight Ennis
Milpitas, CA
SA #21
http://www.SantaCruzLumberCo.com
| |
| baggo
Derby,England, UK
Passenger
Posts:1
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| | 04/18/2008 4:41 AM |
| Hi Everybody,
As the owner of the website quoted from earlier in this discussion, perhaps I may be allowed to comment on the hard/soft solder debate?
It is still perfectly acceptable practice in the UK for the use of soft solder caulking on boiler stays PROVIDED the stays are threaded and nutted on the inside of the firebox. The solder used must be a high melting point silver bearing soft solder such as Comsol (from Johnson Matthey). Ordinary plumbing or electrical solder are certainly not acceptable.
As mentioned, the solder offers no structural strength to the stays, this comes from the threads and nuts, and is merely a sealing agent. Overheating and melting of the solder due to allowing the water level to get too low would merely cause the stays to leak. The boiler would still be structurally sound.
The only reason that this method of sealing the stays was used in this particular boiler described on my website (for a 2½" gauge Helen Long) is the very narrow firebox which makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to silver solder the ends of the stays inside the firebox. I myself would not use this method in a larger boiler where it was possible to use normal silver solder.
It would not now be acceptable in the UK to use soft solder in any other part of a NEW boiler and any boiler inspector would, quite rightly, condemn such a boiler if offered for test and inspection. I cannot say for certain but an older boiler using the riveted/caulked construction which passed all the tests MIGHT be passed for further service. It would probably depend on the particular inspector or club.
I hope that clarifies the situation over here.
John | | | |
| deWintonDave
Passenger
Posts:8
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| | 05/01/2008 3:58 AM |
| Posted By Slipped Eccentric on 04/16/2008 9:51 PM
Thanks Dave, if you find anything I'd appreciate it.
Justin,
I think it may be derived from L.B.S.C's "Ford Pacific". Picture to follow later.
Dave. | | | |
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