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My Introduction to The Aristo-Craft Revolution
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jmill24
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Bret W Tesson
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| 30 Sep 2009 03:50 PM |
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Greg, Thanks for that input. I never considered that. I'll search for a weak joint
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Bret W Tesson
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| 30 Sep 2009 03:53 PM |
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Jim,
Nice layout and video. I'm glad to see yours work just fine. I'd sure like to put my E-8s at the front of that streamline consist and run them with Rev receivers onboard to see if the problem still persists.......Bret |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 01 Oct 2009 05:45 AM |
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I appreciate everyone's comments, photos and videos.
One thought worth bearing in mind is that when installing a receiver into a loco it is a good idea to plug everything into it FIRST.
By this I mean to plug in the capacitor board (it plugs into the bottom of the receiver) and the smoke board and anything else both for easy access and so that you can install the plugs without putting pressure on the wrong parts of the circuit boards.
Also be sure to raise the small antenna to be sure to get the maximum reception distance (I forgot to do this on all three receivers I have installed so far).
Jerry |
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markoles
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| 02 Oct 2009 07:18 AM |
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Jerry,
My experiences with the REVO have been positive. In two plug and play installations, both were pretty easy. The main difficulties I encountered were overcome by adding the capacitor boards.
I did a non plug and play locomotive last night, an old aristo FA. This is my post from an ongoing thread on the aristo board I started:
Two things got me that others should be aware of:
1. The non plug and play board allows for installation of the receiver in one of two ways. My first guess was correct, but problem 2 caused me to go in other directions. The board and receiver have printing on them, make sure you line those up correctly. I could not find this information in any of the literature provided or online. When installed correctly, the capacitor board plug slot interferes with the fuse on the non-pnp board. Not too bad, as I was able to sort of push it to one side.
2. The main problem yesterday was related to the old FA board. Wires coming from track pick up are black and white. Wires going to the motors are green and red. However, from the board itself to the old switch board, the colors do not match. I had a lot of 'fun' trying to sort that out, and eventually tore out the old board, which got me in more trouble than I was hoping for. I finally got it straightened out. Now, I have black wires pulling power from one side of the track and white wires from the other. The original way had white and black opposing each other on the trucks, which when wired together causes a nice easy short circuit. I believe I will have to adjust the B unit the same way or else I will have a short circuit situation again. (I think the wiring thing has been documented elsewhere, but I completely forgot while I was doing my initial wiring).
Anyway, once I sorted that out, the REVO worked well, although I had the whole shell off and no where to run it late last night. Once I get the B unit straightened out, I will take some pictures.
Tom asked about slow speed operations. I have found that the trains tend to run better at slower speeds, likely because of the cap boards. I like this system a lot better than my old aristo TE or power packs.
Mark |
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Mark Oles
Millersvillanova Railroad, Lancaster, PA |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 02 Oct 2009 07:52 AM |
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Posted By markoles on 02 Oct 2009 07:18 AM
Jerry,
My experiences with the REVO have been positive. In two plug and play installations, both were pretty easy. The main difficulties I encountered were overcome by adding the capacitor boards.
I did a non plug and play locomotive last night, an old aristo FA.
Hi Mark,
Your timing is perfect.
One of my FB-1s has a short so I thought I would start with it in adding the Revolution to some of my FA/B-1s. I did put very cheap decoders into a F1 ABBA and later removed them because their total current drain was greater than my MTS could handle and the cheap decoders were not dependable in multi-unit consists.
Someone had suggested using a single Revolution receiver to run both a FA-1 and FB-1 and I am going to try it.
I installed my 4th Revolution receiver yesterday for a friend. I finally remembered to raise the antenna.
As I installed it we talked about the options and he decided to try it without the large capacitor board (I did install the single capacitor) or smoke board. He will use the smoke switch on the E8 to control the smoke and even with the single capacitor that comes with the Revolution the E8 ran fine on my caboose layout with brass track that has not been cleaned in months. We will see how it works with his layout as well.
As you also found out I have learned to disregard the color coding in my FA/B-1s.
When I was at the HAGRS I bought some 4 wire and 6 wire harnesses and I will use one of them to wire the FB-1 to the receiver in the FA-1. It should work because the lights and smoke units will be getting their power from the rails and not through the receiver. To simplify my installation I will probably only feed track and motor power between the FA-1 and the FB-1.
For anyone who intends to disassemble an Aristo FA-1 or FB-1 the following shows a tool I invented years ago. I made it from a coat hanger that works beautifully to pull the top from the lower frame. Just insert it by the steps as illustrated and gently pry it up with a long nose pliers as shown:
Two cautions are that both the screws that hold the mud flaps(?) and the hand rails tend to push in at the bottom and against the frame making frame removal much harder. I remove the screws and pull the handrails back slightly and the frame comes out much easier. It is not unusual for dried paint to act as a sort of adhesive making frame removal difficult as well.
Jerry
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East Broad Top
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| 02 Oct 2009 11:26 AM |
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...- The Rev receivers produce a PWC voltage which is incompatible with some sound cards (Soundtraxx for one). Reportedly there are "adapter" boards available to help with this issue (at a cost). As I understand it, this problem exists between the Sierra diesel sound boards, not the steam ones. Why the difference, I don't know. I haven't hooked my steam Sierra up to the Revolution yet, but I got a wiring diagram from Stan Cedarleaf showing how to do that. (It's very straightforward from looking at it.) Later, K |
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markoles
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| 02 Oct 2009 11:44 AM |
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Jerry,
I have built up to FA to be the lead and the FB to be a slave unit, sort of like the real thing. I have 4 wire connectors, and when I removed the switches in the doorway, the four wires fit nicely through. I am running power pick up from the B unit, tying it in to the A unit to give a better overall power pick up. Then I have another pair of wires taking the motor wires back to the B unit. The last pair of wires is for the speaker that fits very nicely where the smoke unit fan used to be!! Now, I have stero sound!!
Mark |
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Mark Oles
Millersvillanova Railroad, Lancaster, PA |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 02 Oct 2009 01:38 PM |
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Posted By East Broad Top on 02 Oct 2009 11:26 AM
...- The Rev receivers produce a PWC voltage which is incompatible with some sound cards (Soundtraxx for one). Reportedly there are "adapter" boards available to help with this issue (at a cost).
As I understand it, this problem exists between the Sierra diesel sound boards, not the steam ones. Why the difference, I don't know. I haven't hooked my steam Sierra up to the Revolution yet, but I got a wiring diagram from Stan Cedarleaf showing how to do that. (It's very straightforward from looking at it.)
Later,
K
From what Stan told me the reason the steam units work is that the problem is the speed control for the sound units and the chuff contacts allow the steam units to work but they would not work on auto-chuff. This is the same sort of problem I ran into trying to get analog sound units to work under MTS. I finally found an old LGB schematic that worked with MTS and I intend to try it with the Revolution.
Stan had an adapter board that Sierra used to sell but apparently does not any more. Somewhere I think I have the Sierra Soundtraxx wiring diagram for their circuit.
Jerry |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 02 Oct 2009 01:41 PM |
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Posted By markoles on 02 Oct 2009 11:44 AM
Jerry,
I have built up to FA to be the lead and the FB to be a slave unit, sort of like the real thing. I have 4 wire connectors, and when I removed the switches in the doorway, the four wires fit nicely through. I am running power pick up from the B unit, tying it in to the A unit to give a better overall power pick up. Then I have another pair of wires taking the motor wires back to the B unit. The last pair of wires is for the speaker that fits very nicely where the smoke unit fan used to be!! Now, I have stero sound!!
Mark
Hi Mark,
That is the sort of wiring I had in mind. I had already MUed my FA/FB-1's together (long before Aristo did) and I even added speakers to the B units but the sound systems I was using were unable to power two speakers (one in the A unit and one in the B unit). I plan to try to leave the switches in place as I intend to use them to control the smoke and lights.
Thanks,
Jerry
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Stan Cedarleaf
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| 04 Oct 2009 08:04 AM |
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Posted By Jerry McColgan on 02 Oct 2009 01:38 PM
Stan had an adapter board that Sierra used to sell but apparently does not any more. Somewhere I think I have the Sierra Soundtraxx wiring diagram for their circuit.
Jerry
Jerry, you're having too much fun with the REVOLUTION. 
Here's the diagram of the adapter board. It's just the first two pages which has the parts list and the major wiring diagram.
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stancedarleaf/Aristo%20REVOLUTION/Tech6%20Page%201-2.pdf
I'm not an electronics person and would have a hard time figuring out how to wire the thing from scratch. But I could put a kit together if I follow the numbers.
I have 2 of these boards in use and they work very well with the REVOLUTION and the Sierra diesel modules.
As mentioned, the adapter board is not needed for the steam modules when using reed switches to trigger chuff.
There are a number of posts with the explanation and images of the FABBA set that I'm running with one receiver. I did rewire all the F units exactly the same. They are daisy chained from the battery car, through three units and then to the lead unit. I used the All Electronics 4 conductor connectors used the red and black for power, yellow and green for speakers. With the hookup, I can run 1, 2, 3 or four units.
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Dewey, AZ
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East Broad Top
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| 04 Oct 2009 09:00 AM |
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Stan, thanks for clarifying what's going on between the Sierra and the Revolution. I believe the Sierra has a similar (or identical) issue with RCS. Since I've not hooked mine up to the Revolution yet, do you know if the idle sounds play on the Sierra steam sound without any extra circuitry? I know you need the opto-isolator for the RCS to get them.
Later,
K |
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Stan Cedarleaf
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| 04 Oct 2009 10:30 AM |
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Posted By East Broad Top on 04 Oct 2009 09:00 AM
do you know if the idle sounds play on the Sierra steam sound without any extra circuitry?
Later,
K
Kevin.............. Now that you ask, I really haven't paid any attention to that. I'll make it a point to check it out later today and get back to you. I have standing sounds with the diesel module but that has an adapter board. They play as long as I have power to the unit.
I use a larger 1.2 amp hour 6 volt gel cell in place of the small OEM battery on the steam modules so I do think the standing sounds come on when I power up the unit. It's really funny that I never noticed. How come you ask such hard questions???!!!!???? |
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Dewey, AZ
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Jerry McColgan
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| 04 Oct 2009 10:33 AM |
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Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 04 Oct 2009 08:04 AM
Jerry, you're having too much fun with the REVOLUTION.
Hi Stan,
Is it really possible to have too much fun? 
Since the technical bulletin contains the basic information Soundtraxx apparently has no objection to sharing the information.
Here are the pages for the adapter board installation kit:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx1.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx2.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx3.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx4.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx5.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx6.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx7.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx8.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx9.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx10.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx11.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx12.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx13.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx14.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx15.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx16.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx17.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx18.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx19.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx20.jpg
Regards,
Jerry |
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Stan Cedarleaf
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| 04 Oct 2009 10:54 AM |
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REVOLUTION to Sierra STEAM module wiring diagram that I'm using. I have all 4 sounds on buttons 1-4
1 is bell
2 is whistle
3 Hiss
4 coupler clank.
I have the bell button latched so I can have the bell ring as long as I like.... The bell with ring when crossing a track magnet as well.
The whistle on button two momentrary and I have the module programmed so I can "play" the whistle as I like. It will "toot" once when crossing a track magnet.
These options are part of the Sierra setup steps... |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 04 Oct 2009 03:19 PM |
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Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 04 Oct 2009 08:04 AM
There are a number of posts with the explanation and images of the FABBA set that I'm running with one receiver. I did rewire all the F units exactly the same. They are daisy chained from the battery car, through three units and then to the lead unit. I used the All Electronics 4 conductor connectors used the red and black for power, yellow and green for speakers. With the hookup, I can run 1, 2, 3 or four units.
Hi Stan,
Can you provide a link to your posts on your installation of the Revolution in the FABBA set?
Thanks,
Jerry
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Stan Cedarleaf
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| 04 Oct 2009 08:17 PM |
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Jerry.......... Here's some copy of my initial thoughts on the FABBA hookup posted on the Aristo Forum.
George... Great minds think in the same direction, eh????  I'm planning the same thing with an FABBA set. However, at this time, my plan is to power just the lead A and B unit and dummy the trailing B and A unit. All this is in my mind right now which is a very scary place to be.... Initially, I'm going to try to run both powered units from one receiver. I'll probably get yelled at for doing that but, I'm going to try it. As a beta tester for the new system, we're supposed to run them through their paces, right? The engineers design these toys to function the way they designed them. However, when they leave the security of the manufacturing plant, they're open game for whatever might be tried. (Warranty goes out the window in that case) It's my plan to put the batteries in the second B unit to power the system. Tests will be made with 14.8 Li-ion packs. At present, I have the capability of paralleling 2 4400 mhz packs up to 8800 mha with comfortable charging times. If the 2 locomotives shut down the receiver, I'll control each locomotive separately and "bind" them into one consist.When I helped Brandy make the initial tests with the NEW TE, we used 2 dash 9's each with it's own receiver and battery. We were able to MU them just fine. They ran as one unit very nicely. I'm not sure of the current draw difference between the dash 9's and the FA motors, so that will be part of the experiment. Sound will be added to the lead unit. I'll be using the Sierra Soundtraxx modules. The TE should be capable of triggering the bell, whistle and 2 other functions. Reed switches will be used for track magnet triggering as well. The Dallee systems should work nicely as well. All the above to try to answer your question... If you are going to power each ABBA or ABBBA, I would suggest onboard batteries in each unit with it's own receiver. With the NEW TE, you can fine tune each unit to run together. It will take some "tweaking", but when you've programmed and "bound" each locomotive together in a single consist and select the CAB # for that consist, all 4 or 5 locomotives will run as one. It would be best to select the same voltage and mha battery pack for each locomotive. With the new technology in batteries today, you should have no problem finding the right combination. Also, testing will need to be made to check run times with each locomotive. If one or more of the battery packs discharge before the others, a great drag will be created as one or more units will become non powered. Soooooooooo...... I would suggest that you test run times so you don't discharge any of the batteries completely. Stop running before any battery would discharge. That's the beauty of one battery source. When it discharges, all systems stop at once. However, that may not be suitable for the ABBA/ABBBA you're planning.Li-ions with a protective overcharge/undercharge board in them, will shut down completely when the shut down voltage is reached. ie: the 14.8 Li-Ions shut down at 9.6. They will read "0" on a meter. They ain't completely dead, the protective circuit shuts them down and they're ready to be charged. The 14.8's will charge to 16.5 or so then the protective circuit stops the charging.I'm not sure what the discharge curve is on NiMH, but they don't like to be fully discharged. Just a disclaimer here, George... I shore ain't no expert on all the tek-in-all stuff, I've just been running trains with all types of batteries for 10 years, made many mistakes, let out the magic smoke in different systems but I have all my trains running on batteries of various types, with numerous RC systems and have a ball doing it. Like my old High School Earth Science teacher posted in his classroom those 55 years ago, "Where would the turtle be if he didn't stick his neck out". That's kinda been my attitude. Sorry for the long epistle..... Hope it helps. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
After I had written this back in March, I tried, with great success, putting an FABBA consist together and running it with one receiver in a follow battery box car. I can't find the exact posts but they're embedded in threads on the Aristo Forum.
Here's a copy of a post I just made on the MLS MU thread at Marty's.
Posted By TonyWalsham on 01 Oct 2009 03:44 AM
Hi Stan.
Four powered FA's from one revolution is vey impressive.
Did you have the ESC fan cooled?
Tony... when I started on the FABBA consist, I was going to try using a receiver in each AB unit. When I had all the shells off and was hard wiring the 4 units together, I wondered if all 4 units would run on one receiver. It did and has been that way ever since. So far, I have not had to use a cooling fan. The units are hard wired together and connected using All Electronic's 4 pin connectors. Red and black supply power with the yellow and green connecting the Sierra sound to speakers in the A units. The battery car contains one REVOLUTION receiver, one 14.8 4400 Li-ion battery and a Sierra sound module with the adaptor board. Runtimes with the 14.8 4400 mAh are consistantly 2 3/4 hours. I'm doing tests with 18.5 volt 5200 mAh and have increased runtimes to over 3 hours.
I should qualify my runtime statements. Most of my train running is constant. I start the train with a fresh, fully charged battery and let it run until the PCB in the battery pack shuts it off. Change to a new battery and start all over again. The run times listed above are under those conditions.
Image of the test runs with just the FABBA chassis pulling 25 freight cars.
Then pulling 11 USA streamliners at Marty's using the 18.5 volt 5200 mAh Li-ion.
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Dewey, AZ
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Stan Cedarleaf
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Ward H
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| 08 Oct 2009 06:33 PM |
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Jerry,
Here is what I posted on another forum about my experiance with the Revolution.
I run brass track power and have two sound box cars. I program the sound system for the locos that I will be running that day. I was using trackside TEs.
I have been using the Revolution TE System in my diesels (and Blue Comet Pacific) since June. I have been experimenting with the various ways to install them.
I have installed them in locos. (More costly)
I have installed them in the sound box cars and run the motor outputs to the locos which I wired to receive the motor output directly to the motors and headlights. (Cheaper as I only need one Revo per box car)
After running these setups as various MUs and SUs I have gravitated to a style of running.
I run two trains, freight or passenger, with another one on a passing siding. I mostly use the locos with Revos installed. I set one of the sound box cars as MU1 and add a Loco or two to the MU list. I use the speed offset to match speeds. (it does not effect the loco when set to SU but it remembers it for the next MU run).
I do need another sound box car.
My sound box cars sense speed through chuff triggers (yep, you can do this with diesels).
So, most of my control activities are loco speed and sound stuff. I use manual horn, bell, rev up, rev dwn and vol up, vol dwn.
By using the * key I can toggle throught the MU locos and control the headlights on/off, smoke on/off. (one trick, use the #1 key for smoke so when you press the # key for the quick menu, it is easy to see that status of the smoke, on/off. If you use the #6 key, you have to scroll down in the menu)
So, my standard has become a Revo in every loco and a Revo in every sound box car. It may cost a little more but it gives me the controls that I want. The Revo makes MUing so easy that this way of running is easy to set up.
Next, I plan to install another smoke board in the locos to control cab lights. |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 09 Oct 2009 07:56 AM |
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Posted By Ward H on 08 Oct 2009 06:33 PM
Jerry,
Next, I plan to install another smoke board in the locos to control cab lights.
Hi Ward,
My plan (for the FA/B-1s without Plug n Play interfaces) is to run both an A and B unit from a single receiver but rather than make the installation any more complex than necessary I will leave the lights and smoke units controlled by the switches.
I am a bit confused about why you will be using smoke boards to control cab lights. Can you not just do that with the wiring harness from the Revolution Receiver?
Jerry |
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dbodnar
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| 09 Oct 2009 08:05 AM |
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Posted By Jerry McColgan on 09 Oct 2009 07:56 AM
Posted By Ward H on 08 Oct 2009 06:33 PM
Jerry,
Next, I plan to install another smoke board in the locos to control cab lights.
Hi Ward,
My plan (for the FA/B-1s without Plug n Play interfaces) is to run both an A and B unit from a single receiver but rather than make the installation any more complex than necessary I will leave the lights and smoke units controlled by the switches.
I am a bit confused about why you will be using smoke boards to control cab lights. Can you not just do that with the wiring harness from the Revolution Receiver?
Jerry
Jerry - the six auxiliary control connections on the Revolution receiver are not designed to directly operate lights or other accessories. They are simple open collector outputs that are meant to operate sound card inputs and such. FYI, I have designed a circuit board for the Revolution receiver that will take the six auxiliary outputs and use them to provide six 0.5 amp outputs that can be used to control five volt relays, LEDs and other devices that run on 5 or fewer volts. I still have a few revisions to do on the web page that gives details on its design, use and capabiilties but I should be able to post a link sometime next week. Stay tuned. dave
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Dave Bodnar
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Jerry McColgan
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| 09 Oct 2009 08:52 AM |
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Posted By dbodnar on 09 Oct 2009 08:05 AM
Jerry - the six auxiliary control connections on the Revolution receiver are not designed to directly operate lights or other accessories. They are simple open collector outputs that are meant to operate sound card inputs and such.
FYI, I have designed a circuit board for the Revolution receiver that will take the six auxiliary outputs and use them to provide six 0.5 amp outputs that can be used to control five volt relays, LEDs and other devices that run on 5 or fewer volts.
I still have a few revisions to do on the web page that gives details on its design, use and capabiilties but I should be able to post a link sometime next week.
Stay tuned.
dave
Hi Dave,
I appreciate the information. As I've said I am a total novice with the Revolution.
Thanks,
Jerry
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Greg Elmassian
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| 09 Oct 2009 09:09 AM |
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Dave, I've been asked numerous times on the capacity of these 6 connections. Do you have an individual milliamp rating and max for all of them in a conducting state?
I haven't looked closely at my board, maybe I can see the device, but I suspect these may come directly from the micro.
Do you have any info?
Regards, Greg |
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Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
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Ward H
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| 09 Oct 2009 12:37 PM |
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Jerry,
Dave answered your question as to why the aux functions can not directly drive lighting circuits. They can be used to control the smoke board which can be used as an on/off switch for devices up to 5 amp.
Dave,
I am very interested in your circuit board. I will be looking for a post announcing the web page is ready. |
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dbodnar
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| 09 Oct 2009 01:18 PM |
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Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 09:09 AM
Dave, I've been asked numerous times on the capacity of these 6 connections. Do you have an individual milliamp rating and max for all of them in a conducting state?
I haven't looked closely at my board, maybe I can see the device, but I suspect these may come directly from the micro.
Do you have any info?
Regards, Greg Greg - I believe that you should limit the current draw to 20 or 25 ma - I also believe that the outputs are buffered, not connected directly to the output pins of the processor. I'll be back home on Monday and will have a closer look that should allow me to find the device that is used. In any event, I would not use those outputs for anything other than logic signal connections... dave
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Dave Bodnar
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