Jerry McColgan
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| 29 May 2010 10:17 AM |
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Posted By East Broad Top on 29 May 2010 09:23 AM
I know the Revolution freaks out when it's sitting on powered track with a DCC signal superimposed on it.
Later,
K
I can't talk about the other stuff - it is way over my head. I know what an oscilloscope looked like 60 years ago and I might find the on/off switch but then I would be lost.
Regarding the DCC signal Aristo has a couple of bridge rectifiers that I believe are supposed to make it possible to run a Revolution on a DCC powered track. I bought some of them but they are still in the bags and I have never tried them so I cannot say how well they work.
I figured out that I must have put a MRC decoder into that Lionel 0-4-0 so perhaps one of these days I will get around to using it as a guinea pig but don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.
Someday....
Jerry |
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Ward H
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| 29 May 2010 10:40 AM |
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Greg,
There is one other advantage to using the new track side RX as a master control. I will still be able to run stock DC locos when I want to. If it wasn't for that using the new accessory controller and relay idea would work fine.
Kevin,
I have been running my three tracks with the Revo on board RXs for 11 months. I have Aristo USA and Bachmann locos with the Revo installed for a total of 10 Revo powered locos, all running on track supplied by Revo on board RXs. I have set the track side RXs to 75% and everything has run well. One loco (RDC) does not have the cap board in it. One Revo powers the Aristo reversing unit.
To me, this indicates that you can supply the Revo RXs with PWM power with no adverse effects. I thought that DCC was AC voltage and that is why you needed a bridge rectifier to run a Revo on DCC powered track.
Stan,
I have the new software in my Revo TX. When programed to "Base" mode there is an option for PWM or Linear. Has this now changed?
Jerry,
You got it! I have run the same scenario you describe. I did it just to see if it would work and it did. |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 29 May 2010 10:53 AM |
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Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 May 2010 09:45 AM
If you need a remote kill switch, I would do something with an accessory controller and a relay, simple, cheap, and if you don't have a linear mode on the new trackside may be the only solution.
Why waste an entire trackside?
Don't expect to get 15 amps at 24 volts.... just like all electronic devices, the limit is WATTS, not just volts or amps alone...
That's also why Jerry only gets 7-8 amps instead of 10, because he's most likely over 12 volts. Also Jerry, don't EVEN think of the "20 amp peak", you need to use ratings that are sustained... especially if you already work your equipment to the limit (not criticizing, just observing).
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
As usual you bring up some good points and you are right in that I do already work my equipment to the limit (and sometimes beyond). Long, multiple diesel unit, multiple trains with heavy lighted passenger trains are what I really enjoy. If I split the trains and run one on each mainline with each controlled by a Train Engineer all is OK. It is only when I put all the lighted Streamliners on a single track that the amps run high - and there are no light switches.
I should have made it clear that I was not suggesting that anyone should buy a Track Side (if that is what it Will be called) just for the shut off ability. What I meant to say is that it would be (to me anyway) a nice feature IF someone was already going to buy it. I wonder if we are going to start calling it a TS because Track Side is a lot to type.
I don't expect to get 15 amps but I do hope to get more than the 7 - 8 amps that I get out of my existing TE's and other brand remotes. Less than that and I would be back to the same limitations I have with other remote systems. If I could at least get 10 amps that would probably be enough to handle the FA Warbonnet Streamliners that need more than 7 - 8 amps. Perhaps there are reasons unknown to me why that 7 - 8 amps seems to be the norm including 15 amp power supplies.
If it turns out that the Track Side unit has no more than 7 - 8 amps output that would probably be fine for most people but for me personally my idea of using it in series with the Revolution on board receivers would be a non-starter - so far the answer is yet to be determined. I guess I need to get in line and wait for the answers to come out.
Jerry |
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krs
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| 29 May 2010 12:30 PM |
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For an emergency remote kill switch I would do something that is totally independent of the Revolution.
In fact - I would do that with any other system as well including DCC.
If there is a problem that requires that the power to the layout be shut down immediately and absolutely reliably. I would not depend on any radio controlled system that may not react due to interference or God knows what. When one has many amps going to the track one can't afford an emergency kill switch not to work for ant reason - just my thoughts. |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 29 May 2010 02:11 PM |
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Posted By krs on 29 May 2010 12:30 PM
For an emergency remote kill switch I would do something that is totally independent of the Revolution.
In fact - I would do that with any other system as well including DCC.
If there is a problem that requires that the power to the layout be shut down immediately and absolutely reliably. I would not depend on any radio controlled system that may not react due to interference or God knows what. When one has many amps going to the track one can't afford an emergency kill switch not to work for ant reason - just my thoughts.
Hi Knut,
I have always found a long nail or screw to be a perfect kill switch. Maybe I should not say this since we are getting up in the amps but like I always say, I only report what I do - I don't recommend it to others.
If anyone wishes to say why this is a dumb idea I invite them to do so and I will not dispute them.
If safety is an issue a little heat shrink or electrical tape in the middle should resolve that. For that matter a 4" - 6" piece of brass or stainless track should work quite nicely with less chance of it getting hot from the short.
Jerry |
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Stan Cedarleaf
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| 29 May 2010 03:55 PM |
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Jerry... I've been perusing these latest posts and wondering what might happen if you did use the New Trackside to power the track to run the 0-4-0 and then control other trains with onboard receivers on the same track.
Ward's description seems to make good sense as he's basically doing that now without adverse reaction between the 5 amp receiver used as a trackside and the 5 amp receivers used on board and powered by the PWC from the track.
Like my old High School Earth Science teacher used to quote, "Where would the turtle be if he didn't stick his neck out?!?!?!". That's not so much of a question as it is a positive statement. 
As for running the ABBA and 12 passenger cars with full lighting. I'd say go for it. From reports on amperage tests, the unit stays cool even under heavy loads. It's also been reported that a test was run with an FABBA pulling 40 cars using a single 14.8 volt battery and the heat sink was barely warm.
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Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
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Jerry McColgan
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| 29 May 2010 04:23 PM |
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Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 29 May 2010 03:55 PM
Jerry... I've been perusing these latest posts and wondering what might happen if you did use the New Trackside to power the track to run the 0-4-0 and then control other trains with onboard receivers on the same track.
Hi Stan,
That is exactly what I have been doing except I have been getting my power from the Aristo Everest and controlling the 0-4-0 with the Aristo 15 amp controller.
Of course if I turn the throttle all the way down both will stop but since the 0-4-0 takes more track voltage to run than the SD-45's I occasionally follow the 0-4-0 (on track power) with a SD-45 freight train (on Revolution Receiver). That way I get to watch two trains while I clean the trash off the tracks.
The 0-4-0 would notice no difference if I controlled it with a Track Side but the difference for me would be that I could walk out and switch turnouts and power sidings while running the 0-4-0 rather than having to run back to the Controller every time I wanted to do anything.
Then too I could remotely turn off the track power with the Revolution Transmitter - again without running back to the Controller. Unlike the Transmitter where the STOP may only stop one loco - with the Track Side I could bring everything to a controlled stop - quickly.
It may not take long but when a phone is ringing time moves fast.
Its always fun to play "What If's." I usually like to wait until someone else spends their money first and I get to play with their new toy before I give my money up for that toy.
I have a victim (I mean friend) in mind that I think can be talked into buying a Track Side so I can play with his first. He bought a Revolution long before I did and it was playing with his that convinced me to buy my own.
Jerry |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 02 Jun 2010 10:03 AM |
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Yesterday more weights and sound units arrived so I am back to installing Dallee sound units into the E-8's that already have Revolutions installed in them.
This schematic is ONLY for the installation of a Dallee sound system. It DOES NOT include anything else which is why some things like the black and brown wires for smoke units are not connected to anything.
My previous posts had been left with a decision that I would switch from using the Aristo instructions to using the Dallee instructions. As I looked at the Dallee instructions I was having a bit of trouble keeping them clear in my mind so I made this schematic up for me to better understand exactly what I am going to do.
I believe it is accurate but I have not yet installed anything using it. I never guarantee anything as I can and do make mistakes. The reason I am posting this is that it may help others as it will help me. Bear in mind that neither Aristo nor Dallee have seen this or approved it. I've done it for my own benefit.
If anyone sees anything I have left out or wired wrong let me know and I will change it.
Jerry
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Jerry McColgan
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| 02 Jun 2010 05:44 PM |
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I have now completed the installation of the SD-45 lead weights and the Dallee sound system in a Warbonnet E-8.
Happily everything worked exactly as Dallee said it would and I now have the added ability to remotely turn the sound system off plus whatever the sound is that J5-1 makes happen.
One word of caution - because the Dallee instructions do not use the same wires that the Aristo-Craft instructions do (at least not in the same way) if you follow the Dallee instructions and solder the Black, Red and Gray wires to the mother board, these wires will then not be long enough to put the sound system any distance from the Revolution board. I would suggest having some spare wires to extend those wires and give more options as to where to position the sound board.
As it arrived, the Dallee sound unit had the volume all the way down (counterclockwise). I turned it all the way up. The Speed Set was also all the way counterclockwise. After playing with it I ended up leaving it with the black notch (visible from above the board) set to about the 1 o'clock position. This dial controls how fast the sound ramps up.
Since I normally run these locos at about 55 on the Revolution (NOT to be confused with what you may prefer) I decided to speed the loco up to 55 and then adjust the dial until it reached full speed at 55.
To do this I set the frame and trucks sideways on the table with the top off (so I could reach the dials). I then connected the power supply to the MU connector but had to put the loco into the Battery position for the MU connection to be active. It appears that the MU does not power the trucks when the power is in the Track position which seems strange but I may be doing something wrong.
I seem to recall something about polarity being critical when powering a loco through the MU connector when running on batteries but I don't remember what it was or where I saw it and maybe I am confusing it with something else.
For whatever reason, I would advise that before powering the loco via the MU connector one should be sure of what they are doing (more so than me).
Jerry
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Jerry McColgan
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| 03 Jun 2010 08:28 AM |
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The 2nd Warbonnet E-8 is now almost done. I just have to tune up the sound unit and screw the top back on.
These photos may help others intending this installation.
There may be a better place to put the sound board (because there is no access to the volume control without taking the top off) but this is what I ended up doing.
I hate soldering but I went ahead and soldered the Black, Gray and Red wires to the mother board as per the Dallee instructions.
Then I reverted back to my favorite way of connecting wires - 3M IDC (Insulation Displacement Connectors).
in this case I used the 3M UY Telephone Connectors.
Those UY Connectors really made the installation a LOT easier and a LOT faster. No solder, no tape or heat-shrink - just slide the wires into the connector and squeeze the connector shut. One of the best things is that the wires are visible so it can be easily confirmed that the wires are in far enough for a good connection.
If this sounds like I am "selling" them perhaps that is because I did sell them for many years before I retired. Now that I am retired I am not as much selling them as I am sharing my belief that these are a great way to connect wires. My 3M paychecks stopped coming 10 years ago.
Jerry
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Greg Elmassian
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| 03 Jun 2010 10:32 AM |
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Jerry, be sure to read my post in "product reviews" about no linear mode, and the restriction in powering the new "Trackside Revo" / "Super Receiver".
It might affect your plans.
Regards, Greg
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Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
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Jerry McColgan
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| 03 Jun 2010 02:43 PM |
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Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03 Jun 2010 10:32 AM
Jerry, be sure to read my post in "product reviews" about no linear mode, and the restriction in powering the new "Trackside Revo" / "Super Receiver".
It might affect your plans.
Regards, Greg
I have been waiting to see what developed regarding the Revolution having linear mode. Since I have a lot of old Sierra Soundtraxx boards I will probably wait for the adapter board. Meanwhile I have the 15 amp Controllers and I am not much of a walk around guy anyway. I can wait.
Regards,
Jerry |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 03 Jun 2010 03:09 PM |
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My next project was going to be to put a Dallee sound system in a 2nd SD-45. I did not anticipate any problems because I had already done one before and it was pretty easy.
What I had not anticipated was that since I have decided to go with the Dallee instructions I was unprepared for what I found when I pulled the Revolution off the SD-45 mother board:
The mother board in a SD-45 is totally different from the mother board in the E-8's. Beyond that the Dallee instructions do not show this mother board.
Additionally the orientation of this board in the SD-45 is opposite to the board in an E-8 so if you use the Speaker jack to orient you, the chances are that you may end up soldering to the WRONG switch pins. You have to turn everything around to figure out which wire is to be soldered where.
The revised schematic I have made for the Dallee sound system going into a SD-45 is this:
NOTICE: The Black, Gray and Red leads from the mother board are reversed from the way they come off the mother board on the E-8 schematic. Also in my picture the jacks for the Speaker and Sound Power are not pictured correctly. I was lazy and I just copied them from the other schematic since I was interested in proper color coding rather than having the photo perfect. On the SD-45 the jacks are side by side rather than back to back. The wire sets will only fit the right way so I was not concerned about this.
If you look carefully you will find another change.
Instead of using the Green Sound Power Lead I have used the Red Sound Power Lead. When I used the green one everything worked fine except the sound did not change when the loco moved.
A phone call to Dallee confirmed that I needed to switch to the Red lead. Once I did that everything worked OK (so don't cut either the red or the green lead short until after you are sure you will not need them).
While talking about differences, there is one more difference I noticed between the wiring of the SD-45 and the E-8's which is that the MU connector of the SD-45 works in the Track Power position but the MU connector of the E-8's ONLY works when the power switch is in the Battery position. In effect (unless I am missing something) the SD-45 can MU with another SD-45 under Track Power but the E-8 cannot MU with another E-8 when running under Track Power.
Then again I can only comment on what I have observed with my locos and I have no idea if this is accurate regarding other locos.
Bear in mind that I have prepared these wiring diagrams for my own use. They are accurate only to the extent that I have tried them with my locos. I make no representation or suggestion that in any way they have the approval of either Aristo-Craft or Dallee. I am providing them free so Caveat emptor.
Jerry
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Jerry McColgan
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| 04 Jun 2010 08:25 AM |
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I rewired an E-8 (that I had previously installed a Dallee sound system in following the Aristo-Craft instructions) to conform with the Dallee instructions. As I did it I noticed one additional difference. The horn and bell are wired in reverse to the Aristo instructions.
Following the Aristo-Craft instructions #1 is the bell and #2 is the horn.
Following the Dallee instructions #1 is the horn and #2 is the bell.
It is not a big deal but it deserves mentioning.
If you have standardized on any particular buttons you can choose the way you prefer by just changing the blue and green wires where they go to J4.
Jerry |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 04 Jun 2010 04:54 PM |
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FYI
The Aristo-Craft GP-40 has the same mother board (or at least it appears the same and the Dallee sound system installs the same) as the E-8 and the board in the Dallee instructions. |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 05 Jun 2010 02:03 PM |
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I am VERY happy to report that I have just finished the installation of the last Dallee sound system going into an Aristo-Craft loco with a PNP (DCC) interface and Revolution.
Everything went pretty much according to the Dallee instructions other than the few exceptions noted.
One item that perhaps should be emphasized is the difference between the solder contacts for the switches on the SD-45 and the other Aristo-Craft diesels I have worked with.
On the regular Aristo mother boards the switch solder contacts are fairly wide and easy to get to. With the SD-45 the contacts are MUCH smaller - so much smaller that one might be inclined to think that two are one (they are NOT).
To emphasize this I have marked the following illustration of a SD-45 mother board showing the SIX contacts for the motor on/off switch and the SIX contacts for the battery/track power switch.
The boxes I marked in red are the contacts that should be soldered to.
Eventually I will probably put Revolutions and Dallee sound systems into two FA-1's that do not have the PNP interface. Since I will be MUing them to FB-1's I am not in a rush to tackle that project.
While I have just finished these installations and I do not have a lot of experience with the "new and improved" locos yet I have to say that I am already very impressed with the difference.
By adding weights to the SD-45's and E-8's they now track through the yard without the previous problems of losing contact with the track.
Most impressive for me is the ability to turn the individual sound systems off via the Revolution transmitter. This combined with the bell is making it very easy for me to confirm that I am in control of the right locomotive. I select the loco I want and then I turn the sound system on plus the bell. That means that the bell comes on for the right loco and since the rest of the locos are quiet there is no confusion about which loco is about to move.
When I am done I turn the "blow down" on confirming I have the right loco again and then turn that loco's sound off.
When power is first turned on all the sound systems getting track power come on for a moment but then I guess they get a signal from the Revolution and all those that are supposed to be turned off shut themselves off (no need to do it all over again).
Speaking of the blow down and sound power off - to activate these options the function keys must be latched. If left in momentary (the default) they will not work. While setting this, check function 6 (smoke unit) to be sure that it too is latched or the smoke unit will not stay on.
Jerry |
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rlvette
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| 10 Jul 2011 01:59 PM |
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OK, time to bring this thread back to the top.
It's too good to waste away in the old threads.
My question: Is there an updated Revolution coming out?
I thought I read somewhere that there was.
If so, how can I tell the updated Revolution from the original release?
Are the transmitters updatable like a PC?
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Jerry McColgan
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| 10 Jul 2011 02:06 PM |
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Hi Randy,
Yes, there will be a new Revolution coming that will have "Philharmonic Sounds" according to Aristo-Craft. No release date or prices know yet as far as I know.
I picked up a brochure on the Revolution at the NGRC that included features of the future model of the Revolution and I posted a copy of it here:
According to Scott Polk, Aristo-Craft will try to make the new sound system compatible with the current Revolutions but it is not guaranteed that they will be able to do it.
Also, there have been free software upgrades made available for current Revolutions to accommodate new products such as the Remote Switch Device.
Aristo-Craft released a new "Insider" that has information on some other stuff including Servo control with a Revolution.
Jerry |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 10 Jul 2011 02:22 PM |
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I can't believe I started this topic way back on 29 Sep 2009 09:39 AM.
Time sure flies.
I guess I should add that I still like the Revolutions and I am still installing new ones as I get new Aristo locomotives like the new 2-8-0 Consolidations (not yet installed but they soon will be).
I just added a Super Revolution Receiver but it may be awhile before I get around to using it.
Jerry |
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Jerry McColgan
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| 11 Jul 2011 10:14 PM |
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Hi Randy,
I have not seen the new Aristo-Craft Revolution "With Sound" and/or the "Philharmonic Sounds". Based on what I have read there appears to be more than the new Revolution on the horizon.
You may want to check this out:
Regards,
Jerry |
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