Greg Elmassian
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| 27 Nov 2009 02:55 PM |
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Sorry Axel, maybe I misunderstood you. The bad (hot) joint was at a rail clamp? Just out of curiosity what manufacturer, and was the clamp directly on the rails or over a stock joiner? This was Aristo track too, right?
I have had a weird buildup occur in some Aristo track and Split Jaw SS rail clamps, but it turns out that I did not tighten them properly at first, and I found lubricating them first allowed the proper torque to be applied.
Some of the SJ clamps had "Sticking points" when turning the screw and that gave me a false torque "feedback" where I thought they were tight enough, but they were not.
Regards, Greg |
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Axel Tillmann
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| 29 Nov 2009 07:32 AM |
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I used splitjaws SS and directly on the track. Never used a joiner - anywhere. |
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| Axel
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Greg Elmassian
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| 29 Nov 2009 08:10 AM |
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Weird, but I have to agree that I have had a few joints get something in them, I don't know what it was, but I did get some resistance. SS is not corroding itself. Knowing the properties of SS, it's hard to believe that this same thing would not happen on any other metal.
On the few joints I have had poor resistance, removal, cleaning and reassembly cured it.
Regards, Greg |
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Chip
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| 29 Nov 2009 09:26 AM |
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I have about 800 ft of Aristo SS with LGB ties with Split Jaw SS clamps. Aristo SS switches. I have a 12ft radius curve that climbs 4+ % with no slippage problem. One feed off a siding to the whole thing running DCC. It is on year three. I started with Aristo ties. They came off easily and did not provide the "twisting" stability anywhere near that of the LGB ties. But this thread is about the juice. I had three dual motor LGB engines running last summer on a hot sunny day and noticed a smell. The plastic on the Aristo switches had melted above a jumper wire. I bypassed them with 14 ga wire. I also put NOALOX paste in the joints. Seems to run fine now. One thing Keith said is correct: Very hard SS track will probably wear the undercarriage of rolling stock more than brass. Also, IMO, SS does not look as good as brass. With the new Krylon flat paints, you can paint the sides of the rail before installing them. Seemed to work well on my test section. But I doubt the paint will last on SS. My maintenance is minimal, but I live in a mild (35-100 deg F) climate in northern California. I wipe the track, pick up branches and cut back growth on the track now and then. That's about it for maintenance.
I recently headed a group that put in an exhibit at the SF Conservatory of Flowers with Accucraft flex track in a hostile environment (wet, humid, dirty). Brass with Split Jaw SS clamps. One caution comment: the brass is really soft; it cuts easily (not quite butter, but not LGB either) and bends easily. We almost didn't need a rail bender. (Read: Don't walk on this stuff) Needs cleaned daily. Seems to be running fine at 8 hours a day, six days a week for a few weeks so far. It will be interesting to see it after 6 months.
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Mike Reilley
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| 29 Nov 2009 12:14 PM |
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Has anyone tried using Noalox on their railclamps to reduce oxidation? You can buy it at Home Depot. This is a product that is specifically designed to reduce oxidation of wiring joints over long periods of time....30 years and such. It contains zinc particles that sacrifice themselves when corrosion happens through oxidation. It also has an anti-seizing aspect to it...so even after years of use, it's supposed to reduce the chance you break a bolt or screw. I've used this stuff for years for electrical connections in my house...as my home has some aluminum wire in it. I also learned that many homes have aluminum power cables from the street...and this is the stuff used to ensure that oxidation doesn't degrade you homes connection to the power grid. All power companies use this stuff for that connection I was told because over time, heat is generated at the connection point in the breaker box and the heat causes the wire and the post to expand and contract very slightly...and this stuff hangs in there and prevents oxidation.
Since our track expands and contracts from heating and cooling by the sun, this stuff might be a good anti-oxidant to use for rail clamps and anywhere wires connect to clamps on the track. Thoughts?????
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Greg Elmassian
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| 29 Nov 2009 12:39 PM |
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I just bought a bottle based on our discussions before Mike. I found that you can get it in a tube, and now a squeeze bottle with a nozzle, so bought the latter. Will be trying it this weekend.
Regards, Greg |
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aceinspp
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| 29 Nov 2009 04:50 PM |
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Man now you tell me after I already laid my new track to the new storage area. later RJD |
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 RJD Chief Engr D & S RR SA# 2510 and the 200th member |
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Greg Elmassian
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| 29 Nov 2009 06:15 PM |
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RJ, I've had very little trouble, only in a couple of spots did I get a little voltage drop, and yours are all covered.
I did spray some lube on a few of them, but it did not seem to do much. I'm going to try this stuff, some of the clamps get some orangish stuff on them, have not figured out what it is, but I think it's the lube I tried.
Regards, Greg |
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Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
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Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
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wigginsn
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| 30 Nov 2009 01:53 AM |
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I've just redone all the connections in my lower loop with a similar product called Joint Seal made for HV jointing and connections. We get a small squeeze bottle with each termination kit at work.
I cleaned each rail and clamp with a wire wheel, then applied it to the clamps and wound 'em up. I'm not expecting to get any trouble from them for a long while (not that there was any - just heading off at the pass..).
This is the blurb on the suppliers website:
EP Joint seal (White, 300gm tube)
EP Joint seal is made up of lithium based 180°C stable grease and titanium oxide. Joint seal is recommended for copper conductors in aluminium fittings and copper to copper connections. EP Joint seal assists the breakdown of contact resistance, fills any voids left after compression and prevents water or contaminants from entering the joint.
They also supply the lithium / zinc product you know as Noalox, that one is recomended for Al - Al joints. I went for the Cu spec since it's closer to brass. Not sure what would be best for stainless tho.
Cheers Neil
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Tuahiwi Valley Lumber
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Cougar Rock Rail
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| 30 Nov 2009 08:45 AM |
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Good info, Neil.
There is also a product I've been wondering about that we used to call "never sieze", that was a copper paste. As a kid I remember wire brushing heavy machinery engine head bolts then putting on the paste on the threads to prevent corrosion etc. With all that copper in it, maybe it would work? Have you guys ever seen/used it?
Keith |
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Chip
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| 30 Nov 2009 10:58 AM |
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NOALOX: I've only used it a year of so; several other members of our club in the SF bay area have used it for years; they like that it doesn't run in the heat.
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Greg Elmassian
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| 30 Nov 2009 03:49 PM |
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I have never seize or anti seize, it's a high temp lithium grease, and you can get it in copper bearing or nickel bearing.
In most of these cases, the primary "good" is done by blocking out air and moisture.
The anti-sieze compounds have the extra advantage of making things slipperier, good for SS screws in SS joiners..
On the anti-corrosion/oxidation, brass and aluminum will benefit from special compounds, SS and Nickel will not, they don't oxidize (from a practical standpoint).
I'm going to try the noalox, but the anti sieze might be even better on my SS split jaws... but that stuff is really messy and gets all over everything.
Maybe I'll do several different ones and report back.
Regards, Greg |
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Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
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Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
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Mike Reilley
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| 30 Nov 2009 04:08 PM |
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As I said above...Noalox is BOTH an anti-oxidation barrier AND an anti-seize compound...at least according to their literature...and it's 20% by weight zinc to absorb oxidation that does get to it. http://www.idealindustries.com/prod...noalox.jsp And of note...for those of you with really LARGE layouts, it's sold in 55 gallon drums too.
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Greg Elmassian
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| 30 Nov 2009 04:56 PM |
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Yep, understand, but it would be good, if you are desirous of anti-seize and anti-oxidation, to see if it works on the particular metal you are using, it is very specifically for aluminum, and combating aluminum oxide.
My guess is anti-seize comes from the zinc and the grease itself, and from what I know of zinc, it would work pretty well on most metals. Oxidation on brass, dunno.
20% zinc is pretty good.
Wish they commented on the use on brass, etc.
I'm going to try it though.
Greg |
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Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
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Chip
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| 30 Nov 2009 08:24 PM |
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Talked to the local chemistry guru here who is familiar with NOALOX. Turns out the big thing about it is that it is hydrophobic (repelled from water) and conductive. Hence it has found use by the electricians for copper as well. Reinforces Mike's comments. |
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Mike Reilley
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| 01 Dec 2009 12:02 AM |
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WHAT....no one needs a barrel of Noalox???? |
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Greg Elmassian
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| 01 Dec 2009 10:46 PM |
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Grease is typically hydrophobic, although, there are better greases to keep water out... this is a lithium grease, very typical.
The zinc does seem to be very helpful in oxidation of aluminum, I don't have confirmation on copper, but zinc is used in many applications.
This grease is NOT conductive. There are VERY FEW truly conductive greases. One of the only ones I have found (other than the very expensive copper and silver bearing greases designed for this) is the Aristo electrolube. Unfortunately it washes out with water and is not plastic compatible as advertised.
I used a fluke meter to check the resistance of Noalox, nothing, open circuit until the probes touched inside the dollup of Noalox. It did measure the resistance of my body in the megohm range.
Many electricians confuse the action of impeding oxidation with adding conductivity.
Regards, Greg |
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Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
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Michael Benke
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| 27 Dec 2009 10:25 PM |
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Steve, I have a combination of 150 feet of Brass and 500 feet of Stainless all code 332. The power is supplied using 12/2 outdoor low voltage wire. I connect to the track every 30 feet to insure NO conductivity issues. I use Slip jaw connectors which I feel are a better clamp than the Hillman clamps. My power is all Massoth which I love. It is all wireless and ALWAYS works. It has been down for almost 4 years with NO problems. |
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