Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
 |
| 29 Sep 2009 09:39 AM |
|
OK. I bit the bullet and after telling myself for a year or so that I did not want or need the Revolution I changed my mind and bought it. Actually I bought 3 Revolutions along with the "stuff" to put receivers into 10 locomotives.
First let me say that this topic is only intended to reflect my personal experiences with the Aristo-Craft Revolution and IS NOT intended to be any sort of nuts and bolts comparison with any other operating system other than what is coincidental to those systems to the limited extent that I use them on my layouts.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am primarily an analog track powered guy and that is unlikely to change.
I also have locomotives that I run on LGB's MTS (DCC); MTH's DCS and to a lesser extent battery power and live steam. I do not profess to be an expert on any of them or on anything. I also have NO PLANS to convert from anything to anything but to simply add the Revolution to the current systems that I already operate.
If anything this might be considered "The Dummies Guide to The Aristo-Craft Revolution."
So what then made me decide to buy the Revolution?
1. Simply the fact that several of my locomotives already came with the Aristo-Craft plug in interface that will fit the Revolution Receiver.
2. Also the fact that those same locomotives already came with the Aristo-Craft switch to go from track to battery power and I was considering going to Marty's but had nothing prepared to run on battery.
3. Being basically thrifty (cheap) I had figured out how to use a surplus floor sweeper 14.4 volt battery to work with an Aristo Train Engineer Receiver mounted in a boxcar but that turned out to be somewhat bulky and heavy and then I found some surplus (cheap) hand vacuum cleaners with 14.4 volt Ni-Cad batteries that were plentiful and even cheaper ($10). I thought I might need a battery powered locomotive to clean my seldom cleaned brass track.
4. I liked the idea of Aristo's capacitor pack to keep the loco running over dirty track.
5. I liked the idea of using a receiver rather than a decoder because it freed me from LGB's MTS 5 amp limit (yes I know there are MTS and DCC alternatives). The receiver meant in effect no limit on the track power amperage and I had found my Aristo F1 ABBA's to be power hogs especially if I ran a pair of them.
6. Since I like lighted passenger cars the amps ran up when I ran a F1 ABBA pulling 11 Aristo Streamliners which is not a problem with a 15 amp power supply and throttle that I already had (I need the throttle to bring the track voltage down to 18 volts to assure long life of my passenger car light bulbs).
7. I like the Revolution's bi-directional communication with the receiver which tells me if the transmitter is still talking with the receiver.
As I said, I do not consider this to be a comparison of apples and oranges. In my mind the Revolution is simply a totally different concept in that the transmitter is talking to a receiver rather than to a decoder which makes it independent from a track signal such as MTS/DCC or DCS.
I fully intend to keep and continue to use track power, MTS/DCC and DCS. I consider all of them to be oranges, apples and peaches (no lemons) with each having unique features that I would not choose one above all the others.
My first experience with the Revolution (which arrived just one day before heading to Marty's) was that I like it. I put it into three locomotives (2 E8s and a GP40) and ran the E8s with one pulling 6 streamliners and the other pulling 12 boxcars and a caboose). While running them for several hours I lost control once (must have pushed the wrong button) which would make me hesitant to hand one over to a visitor to control my trains without some detailed instructions. I also had the receiver shut off (to save the batteries) which has also happened with my MTS and DCS remotes. These may be programming options but this was my first couple of hours experience with a very rushed run through the instructions.
When I got to Marty's I realized that everything had Kadee couplers and I did not so I did not actually run my locos but had more than enough running time with Bubba's, Marty's and Eric's stuff.
Over the next few weeks I will spend more time with the Revolution and report my results here.
One reason I am writing this is that several friends at Marty's mentioned that they had either just bought Revolutions or were going to so perhaps this topic may help them and others.
I would really appreciate it if folks who do not have or intend to buy the Revolution would NOT jump in with comparisons with competitive systems as there are more than enough topics on just about every other system out there.
By the same token I would appreciate it if folks WHO DO OWN Revolutions would contribute their knowledge to this topic.
I AM NOT trying to sell the Revolution. I already made my decision to buy it and I DO NOT have any desire to be told that I made a mistake in how I spent MY money. I just want to learn more about it and to share with others how to get the most out of the Revolution.
There is no objection to anyone who bought a Revolution from mentioning things they may have found to be difficult but for those who have no desire to buy a Revolution please do not rain on this parade. This is a show and tell and not a "My Mustang's better than your Camero" type of discussion.
Thanks,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 Sep 2009 09:58 AM |
|
A few things that I found so far with the Revolution is that while I know better I installed all 3 receivers that I have done so far without raising the antenna. Even so I still got quite good distance from the locos (about 50').
Also on one E8 I forgot to install any capacitors at all. The Revolution comes with a single capacitor but I bought the capacitor pack for all the receivers. Even without a capacitor the E8 ran without any problems on my outside brass track that has not been cleaned in months. Since the E8s have 12 wheels (track contacts) they are probably better on dirty track than the GP40 with 8 wheels (track contacts) but so far all has run very well. I was impressed with the very slow running speeds and smooth gradual speed increases.
So far I have not got to double heading the E8s or to (as I have been told I can do) running a FA-1 and FB-1 from a single receiver.
I have not installed any sound systems so far so I am concerned about what complications I may run into as I have a variety of brands of sound systems.
Additionally I have not tried to control anything (smoke, lights etc.) with the Revolution yet as I was in a hurry and figured I should wait until I am ready to install sound systems (no smoke fluid to fall out when I invert the locos).
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Scottychaos
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:1786
|
| 29 Sep 2009 10:42 AM |
|
Thanks for the thoughts on this system Jerry!
I have been looking into it myself..
Two members of my local Garden RR club has this system running, and its getting great reviews locally..
With the capicators to "store" power, combined with the fact that the rail always has "full power" applied, (similar to DCC),
im wondering how dirty the rail can get, but still have trains running ok?
Im wondering, because my future trackplan would ideally combine live steam with electric..if that can ever be possible..
in the past, the only way to run live steam and electric on the same rails was to use on-board battery power..
the live steamers made rail-power just about impossible..
Im curious if these new kinds of systems might finally allow live steam and "sparkies" to co-exist on the same rails..
with perhaps just wiping the steam oil off the rails periodically..
Probably no one has tried it yet..but I would love to hear about it if anyone has..
Scot |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 Sep 2009 12:35 PM |
|
Hi Scot,
I have never quite understood the electric vs live steam controversy (regarding running both on the same track). As I understand it the worst that could happen would be that live steam could deposit an oil/water mix on the rails but aside from the potential for slipping (or possibility of oil attacking traction tires) it would seem to me that the only real problem would be that many if not most live steamers if left on the rails would short out the tracks. That was a primary reason why my first and so far only live steamer is an Aristo-Craft Mikado bought after Lewis assured me that it would be made with insulated drivers.
If anything I would guess that steam oil would be at least semi-conductive and might leave a protective coating on the rail heads.
Actually I wanted the ability to run both partially to power my coach lights from the rails when running live steam.
In fairness, while I have run my live steamer on my track powered layout it has only been infrequently.
Perhaps others may have more comprehensive information about running live steamers on track powered layouts. For me the best of all is to be able to run anything and everything on the same layouts.
Another reason for my purchase of the Revolution is that under battery power (and perhaps even under MTS/DCC) I could operate a switcher or track cleaning car without taking away from my MTS 5 amp limit. My plans include putting a receiver into at least one NW-2 and maybe even into a DCC ready LGB SP Mogul (or two).
One thing I find interesting is that one member of our club who does not even have a layout yet bought the 1st Revolution, I bought the 2nd and the other most active member has ordered a Revolution plus at least one or two members of another local club have also bought Revolutions. They will end up on track powered layouts, MTS/DCC layouts, DCS layouts and battery only layouts.
None of us are planning to convert everything to Revolutions but rather all are buying Revolutions as an additional capability for their layouts.
Even with my LGB SP Moguls, if they had a decoder interface I would have put decoders into them and used them with track power and or MTS but with a DCC interface it is just too tempting to try them with the Revolution because after all if I don't like the results I will have modified nothing and I will always be able to switch back to track power or to MTS/DCC.
This brings up one difference for me in that I can run a LGB decoder equipped Mogul just as easily on track power as I can with MTS but once I put the Revolution receiver into a loco I will NOT be able to flip a switch and run that loco under track power (short of some degree of rewiring the loco).
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 Sep 2009 12:40 PM |
|
One question I have (I have not had time to look into it yet) is how I am going to connect the Revolution to the LGB SP DCC Interfaced Mogul.
The Mogul has the DCC interface and I am assuming(?) that the interface is compatible with the Revolution plug but the LGB circuit board is not laid out to make it possible to just plug the Revolution receiver into the LGB DCC Interface. I have not sorted out the "stuff" that came with the Revolution but I know it has an adapter board for locos without a DCC interface but I would want something smaller such as a male to female DCC to DCC Interface Cable.
Is this something I need to make up or does someone already offer such an adapter cable?
Thanks,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 Sep 2009 01:07 PM |
|
Posted By Scottychaos on 29 Sep 2009 10:42 AM
Thanks for the thoughts on this system Jerry!
I have been looking into it myself..
With the capicators to "store" power, combined with the fact that the rail always has "full power" applied, (similar to DCC),
im wondering how dirty the rail can get, but still have trains running ok?
Scot
Hi Scot,
Perhaps at least part of the answer to your question can be found in the number of functioning track contacts your locos have.
My personal standard is to look for locos with a minimum of six (6) and preferably eight (8) track contacts. With (as an example) an 0-4-0 (no shoes/sliders) with only 4 track contacts when crossing uneven track or turnouts (especially with a rigid frame) it is not unusual to lose at least one contact with one rail leaving only a single remaining contact. Some 0-4-0's seldom have all 4 wheels actually in contact with the rails all the time. Enter a slightly "dirty" track and instantly - no power. Capacitors may help but I don't know if they would help enough.
I have also experienced several less expensive locos that came from the factory with several non-functioning brushes that contact the drivers dropping what might have been a 6 or more contact loco to 4 contacts or less (perhaps only one contact on one side and three on the other side). This is NOT a slam against less expensive locos just a fact that it is not unreasonable to expect less when paying less. Sometimes I have had to replace inexpensive locos that did not like my layouts but the new owners did not have my type of layout and love those same locos.
Older locos with rough cast wheels also did a less than great job of maintaining track contact.
I suspect that if I had to pick a single benefit of the Revolution it may be that it will enable people who WANT to run on track power to stay with track power rather than to feel that they HAVE to convert to battery power. Those who WANT battery power may go to it for totally different reasons.
I never promote one system over another (There are things that I like about all of them). I just hate to hear that someone switched to something because he felt he HAD to do it.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Scottychaos
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:1786
|
| 29 Sep 2009 03:12 PM |
|
Thanks Jerry! good info.. I have never quite understood the electric vs live steam controversy (regarding running both on the same track). As I understand it the worst that could happen would be that live steam could deposit an oil/water mix on the rails but aside from the potential for slipping (or possibility of oil attacking traction tires) it would seem to me that the only real problem would be that many if not most live steamers if left on the rails would short out the tracks. That was a primary reason why my first and so far only live steamer is an Aristo-Craft Mikado bought after Lewis assured me that it would be made with insulated drivers.
I have never quite understood it either..maybe its more "urban lengend" than we think? (although I doubt that) yes, most live steamer locomotives will short out the track..but im not concerned about that, because my railroad would be "steam only" or "electric only" operating sessions..not at the same time..but using the same tracks! To be honest, I have never heard of anyone trying a "live steam + Track power" railroad and saying it definately wont work, from actual fisrt-hand experience..im only going on the "common knowledge" that it wont work.. I have heard of one example that is DOES work! Finger Lakes Live steamers are club with the big "rideable" trains..but they also have a G-gauge loop..which runs electric and live steam, and I heard it works fine! although they use all stainless steel track, which could be a factor.. Well, I guess I will just have to try it and see! ;) (I will make a new thread for this topic..since its somewhat OT to Jerry's Revolution topic..) thanks, Scot |
|
|
|
|
Del Tapparo
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:1224
|
| 29 Sep 2009 06:45 PM |
|
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 29 Sep 2009 09:39 AM
5. I liked the idea of using a receiver rather than a decoder because it freed me from LGB's MTS 5 amp limit (yes I know there are MTS and DCC alternatives). The receiver meant in effect no limit on the track power amperage and I had found my Aristo F1 ABBA's to be power hogs especially if I ran a pair of them.
Jerry - Not real sure of what you mean by no limit, but I assure you that there is a limit to the amount of current you can draw through the receiver/driver. The Revolution manual states a max of 5 amps continuous current (which is plently for most situations).
|
|
Del Tapparo
Custom Vinyl Lettering & Simple Low Cost Battery Power
www.GScaleGraphics.net |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 Sep 2009 07:17 PM |
|
Posted By Del Tapparo on 29 Sep 2009 06:45 PM
Jerry - Not real sure of what you mean by no limit, but I assure you that there is a limit to the amount of current you can draw through the receiver/driver. The Revolution manual states a max of 5 amps continuous current (which is plently for most situations).
Hi Del,
I should have worded it better.
What I meant is that with MTS (higher with some non-LGB systems) there is a 5 amp total on a given section of track. With the Revolution the limit becomes a receiver limit rather than a track block limit. Theoretically you could hook a power supply of any amperage to the tracks and the various Revolution receivers would only take what they needed leaving the balance of the track amperage available to other locos with Revolution receivers.
Actually not only does the Revolution have a limit but a smoke unit should also have a separate circuit board rather than draw current from the Revolution receiver. The smoke circuit is available separately (one is included with the Revolution).
As an example I could never run an Aristo F1 ABBA with 11 lighted coaches under MTS but I could run it under the Revolution with the lighted coaches taking their power from the tracks and the locos from on board Revolution receivers (perhaps two receivers rather than four could be used). If I ran an Aristo F1 ABBA with four Revolution receivers I could conceivably have up to 20 amps available to those locomotives (5 amps per receiver).
LGB's MTS is limited to the track amps while the Revolution is only limited to each receivers amps. With LGB this is not as big a deal since LGB locos tend to draw fewer amps and a LGB F7 ABBA is only driving four motors while an Aristo F1 ABBA is driving eight motors.
I would not give up my LGB MTS and track power that I have with my LGB F7s but I would not try to run my Aristo F1 ABBAs with decoders either (I tried it with cheap decoders and I was not satisfied with the results).
Actually this could be a Revolution limit IF the Revolution was run on any of my LGB MTS circuits because if the Revolution receiver was getting power from my LGB Central Stations it would be reducing the amps available for any LGB decoder equipped locos. For that reason if I run a Revolution equipped loco on my LGB MTS circuits I will probably run it under battery power thus not taking any power away from the LGB Central Station (such as running a switcher).
I hope this makes sense.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Joe McGarry
1st Class Member
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:140
|
| 29 Sep 2009 07:24 PM |
|
Jerry,
Thanks for the post. Hope you will let us know how the Revolution works out for you. There seems to be a lot of folks who have them but are not reporting their experiences with them. Nobody I know in this area has one, so I depend on info from MLS to learn about this system.
The little I have read about the system it seems to be reasonably simple to use and has decent range. It doesn't seem to have all the "bells and whistles" that DCC has to offer, but sounds like something a newby llike myself could probably live with.
Sure hope you will keep us informed about your experinces with it.
Best wishes,
Joe |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 Sep 2009 08:01 PM |
|
Posted By Joe McGarry on 29 Sep 2009 07:24 PM
Jerry,
Thanks for the post. Hope you will let us know how the Revolution works out for you. There seems to be a lot of folks who have them but are not reporting their experiences with them. Nobody I know in this area has one, so I depend on info from MLS to learn about this system.
The little I have read about the system it seems to be reasonably simple to use and has decent range. It doesn't seem to have all the "bells and whistles" that DCC has to offer, but sounds like something a newby like myself could probably live with.
Sure hope you will keep us informed about your experiences with it.
Best wishes,
Joe
Hi Joe,
I asked someone who knows far more about the Revolution than I do about why he did not post about it here on MLS and his response was that he did not want to get into arguments with others who prefer other systems and would challenge everything he said. That is why I started this topic with a request to avoid comparisons with other brands and products. I also figured that since I have a very basic understanding and I use other systems that while I cannot (and have no wish to) give an accurate step by step comparison with other brands and products I can mention those features of the Revolution that caught my attention and separated me from my money.
As for the "bells and whistles" I should clarify that I am a player of toy trains. I am happy with a chuff chuff; woo woo; and ding ding so it is unlikely that I will be getting into more detailed discussions beyond forward, reverse, smoke, lights, bells and whistles/horns. I never became an expert on MTS/DCC because I have no desire to become one and similarly I have no desire to become an expert on everything the Revolution can or cannot do. Eventually perhaps someone will create a really good (and totally honest) spreadsheet showing how the Revolution compares with other brands and models of control systems but I don't expect it anytime soon.
Also regarding the "bells and whistles" everyone should feel free and welcome to ask about any specific functions the Revolution may or may not have because something that is unimportant to me just might be important to someone else. I would just prefer straight questions (does it have...?) rather than comparative questions (my xxx does this, can the Revolution do it?). I'll be happy to check with Aristo on questions about the Revolution but I am not going to spend time going to other manufacturers to check out how their products compare with the Revolution. Anyone who wishes to make direct comparisons is certainly welcome to start such topics and let them run where ever they may but hopefully not on this topic here.
The obvious question to me was that since I already had Aristo-Craft locos that had the DCC/Revolution interface, why shouldn't I try the Revolution?
The next question for me was that if I was going to put a Revolution receiver into some of my Aristo locomotives then why not add receivers to some other Aristo locomotives that did not have DCC/Revolution interfaces but that I might want to run with the Revolution equipped locos?
The third question for me was that if I was going to have the Revolution on my layout, why not have at least one NW-2 switcher with a Revolution receiver on board?
As you noticed, there are a number of MLSers who own Revolutions and I am depending on them to jump in and correct any mistakes I make and fill in some of the features and functions I am unaware of (correcting my mistakes will NOT upset me as I am looking for accurate information just as much as everyone else).
Additionally I am mostly a track power guy so it can be assumed that my approach is coming from that viewpoint. Battery power Revolution owners are welcome to bring up battery power features and issues that I may overlook and I will not be offended. Again I am not promoting the Revolution over other battery and radio control systems - there are plenty of other topics regarding other brands of radio and battery powered systems.
I have no time frame for this topic so I may post in spurts as I get motivated and then may not say much as I get tied up with something else. Other Revolution owners are welcome to post answers to questions that may be addressed to me.
Regards,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 29 Sep 2009 08:25 PM |
|
One word of caution, but you have not had this problem. There are more than a couple reports of some FA units damaging the new TE. It's not clear why this happened nor any good data on if it is related to a certain "version" of FA. As with any system running a decoder, it never hurts to double check that the track pickups are isolated from the motor outputs, and the same goes for the battery inputs isolated from the motor inputs.
(some of these reports are on the Aristo site itself)
I've run into some variations on Aristo locos that could cause damage to any decoder, rare, but it has happened.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Sep 2009 06:47 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Sep 2009 08:25 PM
One word of caution, but you have not had this problem. There are more than a couple reports of some FA units damaging the new TE. It's not clear why this happened nor any good data on if it is related to a certain "version" of FA. As with any system running a decoder, it never hurts to double check that the track pickups are isolated from the motor outputs, and the same goes for the battery inputs isolated from the motor inputs.
(some of these reports are on the Aristo site itself)
I've run into some variations on Aristo locos that could cause damage to any decoder, rare, but it has happened.
Regards, Greg
Hello Greg,
I was not aware that there were other FA-1s that had a problem with the Revolution but a friend did install a Revolution in his FA-1 and it did damage the Revolution receiver. He called Aristo and was advised to send his FA-1 to Aristo-Craft. The FA-1 was repaired at no cost and quickly returned to him. I have no idea if this affects many FA-1's but it is worth mentioning.
Just to clarify the issue, the Revolution transmitter was not damaged but the receiver apparently was.
In my case none of my FA/B-1s have the DCC/Revolution interface so it should not be a problem for me to convert them to the Revolution. Even so I will add that over the years I have found that Aristo has not always used the same color coding from one loco to another so if one is installing a decoder or receiver it is a good idea to confirm where the wires come from and go to and not to assume anything from the wire color. This is not a situation totally unique to Aristo as I have had products from other brands with similar color coding differences.
The Revolution and the Aristo DCC/Revolution interface are relatively new. Older Aristo locomotives were not designed with DCC/Revolution in mind so it is natural that care should be taken when converting them (and other brands) to battery, DCC, on board receivers or to the Revolution.
Regards,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Sep 2009 07:01 AM |
|
Aristo-Craft has information including instructions about their Revolution at:
TRAIN ENGINEER REVOLUTION
There also is a reproduction of the Model Railroad News review of the Revolution (click on the title):
Aristo-Craft's New Train Engineer Revolution Debuts
Model Railroad News has published an excellent in-depth review of the Train Engineer Revolution in their August '09 issue. Click here to read about it (requires Adobe Acrobat PDF to be installed). Thanks to MRN for allowing us to republish the article.
|
|
|
|
|
Ironton
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:260
|
| 30 Sep 2009 07:03 AM |
|
Jerry,
The big problem with running live steam and track power at the same time is many live steam locos are not insulated. You will get a direct short through the drivers if you have track power on at the same time.
I have some of Accucrafts class 60s, both electric and live steam. The electric version came out first, the live steam version was later. The electric versions, of course, has insulated drivers. The live seam version does not.
That is why it is a bad idea to run both at the same time unless you check for insulated drivers. |
|
Rich Black
Northwest Indiana
SA #269 |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Sep 2009 07:09 AM |
|
[script removed]
|
WHY YOU NEED THE ARISTO-CRAFT/CREST REVOLUTION RCC UNIT
ARRIVING EARLY SEPTEMBER 2009
The Revolution system has been out in the market for several months and has been successfully tested and used by several hundred end users. The vote is overwhelmingly positive and that is for battery or track power. We suggest you read this article by John Sipple of Model Railroad News, that carefully explains the value added of our product at our website www.aristocraft.com under the articles tab on the left side.
Or just go directly to http://www.aristocraft.com/articles/MRN_Revolution/TrainEngineerRevolution_MRN_0809.pdf.
which is a thorough working review from someone who truly understands digital controls.
The concept of the Revolution is to do all the commands in English and on the backlit LCD screen, yet offer the magic of multi consisting and direction control on the same track without using track signals. It uses a network that allows multiple users and multiple groups to operate simultaneously in a 400' range of each other without glitches or over-riding signals.
The Revolution can work for G Gauge DC or O Gauge AC powered trains and on track or battery power. It's plug 'n play on locos with sockets or we provide Non plug 'n play conversion boards. We also provide bridge rectifiers, so that the Revolution is compatible with DCC on multi-user club layouts or just when socially visiting friend's layouts.
The Revolution is available from better hobby dealers.
All the best,
Lewis and Scott Polk
Item Code
Description 1 List
CRE57000 TRAIN ENGINEER 2.4 GHZ 300.00
CRE57001 TRAIN ENGINEER 2.4 GHZ TX 200.00
CRE57002 TRAIN ENG. 2.4 GHZ RX 116.00
CRE57003 TRAIN ENG 2.4 GHZ RX (6PK) 575.00
CRE57072 G SMOKE BOARD 6 PACK 100.00
CRE57073 G SMOKE BOARD 22.50
CRE57074 RCC R/C ACCESS LIGHT SOUND 86.00
CRE57075 RCC-RC 5 WAY SWITCH 81.00
CRE57076 CAPACITOR BOARD FOR G 25.00
CRE57077 NON PLUG N' PLAY BOARD 25.00
CRE57078 NON PLUG N' PLAY BOARD AC 30.00
CRE57079 BRIDGE RECITIFIER BOARD 5.00
CRE57080 TX BATTERY NICAD BATTERY & CHG 25.00
CRE57086 CAPACITOR BOARD FOR HO 20.00
CRE57088 6 PIN ACCESSORY PLUG 6.00
CRE57089 EXT. BUTTON CORD 6.00
| | |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Sep 2009 07:13 AM |
|
Posted By Ironton on 30 Sep 2009 07:03 AM
Jerry,
The big problem with running live steam and track power at the same time is many live steam locos are not insulated. You will get a direct short through the drivers if you have track power on at the same time.
I have some of Accucrafts class 60s, both electric and live steam. The electric version came out first, the live steam version was later. The electric versions, of course, has insulated drivers. The live seam version does not.
That is why it is a bad idea to run both at the same time unless you check for insulated drivers.
Hi Rich,
Thank you for confirming the situation with the non-insulated drivers.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 30 Sep 2009 07:30 AM |
|
Jerry - I posted the notes from the seminar on the Revolution that I did last week at the Fall ECLSTS on my web page at:
Select the first presentation in the list.
They are best viewed with Internet Explorer - when the first screen
comes up there is a button in the lower right corner that says "Slide
Show" - use this option as it gives the overlays and animations
properly - if you just click on each slide some of the information is
hidden. The presentation was video taped and is likely to join the first one on Youtube sometime soon.
dave
|
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Sep 2009 07:48 AM |
|
I will relate two experiences I have had with running some of my Aristo locos with the Revolution under battery power.
Before I upset the battery guys let me clarify that my use of batteries is only going to be on a very limited basis so my demands and expectations from the batteries I use is very low.
After installing the Revolutions into a couple of Aristo E8s and an Aristo GP40 I started looking for some batteries I could use without having to go out and buy one (they are not cheap).
My first battery discovery was with a couple of those round Robo floor vacuum cleaners (the kind that runs around like a mouse bouncing off walls etc.). My wife had a couple of broken ones and I found that they had 14.4 volt NiMH (or Lithium Ion - not sure which) batteries. Actually I had started this before I bought the Revolutions and I was going to just put a TE full size receiver into a boxcar and power the GP40 that way.
As it turned out the battery was heavy so it had to be mounted in the center of the boxcar but it did work. One battery was dead but by recharging and discharging it I finally got to where I could get about 1/2 hour running time out of it. The other battery was better and I ended up with a bit more than an hour running time (loco, 12 boxcars and caboose on flat tracks).
The main problem was that when the battery got low the train stopped wherever it was and I had to go and get it. Naturally this happened at the hardest to get at places.
My next discovery was a Shark hand held vacuum cleaner which had a 14.4 volt NiCad battery (1350 mah). This battery was a lot lighter and surprisingly I got around an hour using it plus when it got low on charge the train slowed down but made it back to me so I did not have to go and get it.
I had two of the Sharks (bought at surplus stores - yep I am that cheap) for only $15 each including vacuum cleaner with battery and charger. That worked so well I went back to the surplus store and bought 6 more Sharks (all they had) after negotiating them down to $10 each. Two had chargers and all had batteries. I figured that even if the units are used and rejects (returned to the stores and ending up as surplus) they would be good enough for my limited applications.
My point is that those who prefer battery operations will probably want to buy a good battery and recharger but for those of us who have much more limited desires for battery operations (or who may be on very limited budgets) there are less expensive alternatives and you just might have one or more "free" batteries in your wife's appliances around your house.
For me (with the Aristo E8s and GP40) 14.4 volts was plenty and I could probably have gotten by with 12 volts. For other locomotives a higher battery voltage may be needed. I don't know what the Revolution minimum voltage is but it is probably in the manual somewhere (someday I may get around to reading the manual).
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Sep 2009 07:53 AM |
|
Posted By dbodnar on 30 Sep 2009 07:30 AM
Jerry - I posted the notes from the seminar on the Revolution that I did last week at the Fall ECLSTS on my web page at:
Select the first presentation in the list. They are best viewed with Internet Explorer - when the first screen comes up there is a button in the lower right corner that says "Slide Show" - use this option as it gives the overlays and animations properly - if you just click on each slide some of the information is hidden.
The presentation was video taped and is likely to join the first one on Youtube sometime soon.
dave
Hi Dave,
Thanks for jumping in. As I mentioned I am strictly a novice with the Revolution.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Tom Parkins
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:327
|
| 30 Sep 2009 11:31 AM |
|
Jerry, or anybody else, I have been seeking info on actual operating experience with the Revo. I most interested in slow speed operation. How do trains start and stop using the Revo. How does that compare to the conventional Aristo TE operationally?
When a train leaves the station does it look real? When you start a heavy freight does it hit 30 mph in 5 seconds? How easy is it to adjust "momentum" results? Have you done any switching?
Having pulled the throttle on the 1:1 the scale stuff can be a little less than realistic.
Thanks Tom
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Sep 2009 11:59 AM |
|
Posted By Tom Parkins on 30 Sep 2009 11:31 AM
Jerry, or anybody else, I have been seeking info on actual operating experience with the Revo.
I most interested in slow speed operation. How do trains start and stop using the Revo. How does that compare to the conventional Aristo TE operationally?
When a train leaves the station does it look real? When you start a heavy freight does it hit 30 mph in 5 seconds? How easy is it to adjust "momentum" results?
Have you done any switching?
Having pulled the throttle on the 1:1 the scale stuff can be a little less than realistic.
Thanks Tom
Hi Tom,
No switching yet but I did run the Revolution with both E8s and a GP40 where one thing that I really liked was the very slow speed operations including starting and stopping with momentum. Most other remote systems I have tend to increase speed in visible notches (my MTS is not running on 128 or more steps).
I have personally always preferred tethered remotes for switching but I just might change my mind after some more experience with the Revolution.
Others can probably give much more information backed by a lot more experience.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
East Broad Top
Moderator
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3607
|
| 30 Sep 2009 01:19 PM |
|
The slow speed operation is dependent on how well your particular locomotive runs at slow speed. I got a Bachmann K-27 and Aristo C-16 both to crawl, but my LGB mogul is a bit jack-rabbity. So, I'd say if your locos are capable of slow speeds, this controller will accommodate.
The nice thing about the Revolution is the graphical display of where your throttle is set. It's not quite as nice as an old-fashioned knob with a definite start and stop, but it's as close a second as you can get with push-button controls. You can at least look down and see where your throttle is set. You can set your start voltage to jump to say 20% at the first push if your loco starts moving at 21% so you're not holding down the "up" button interminably waiting for the throttle to catch up with the locomotive's operating range. After that, it's very responsive based on how many speed steps you have the unit set for. I've got mine set at 100 steps, which I find quite adequate.
The momentum works very well, and can start even my jack-rabbit mogul off fairly slowly. It definitely takes some getting used to in terms of operating, though. There are times I think it'd be nice to have two displays--one for where you have your throttle set, and one showing where the momentum adjustment has it sitting. I found myself frequently pushing the throttle button more in my impatience to see the train actually start to move. This is as effective as pushing the elevator button repeatedly. It does nothing to make the train move any quicker, it merely sets the top end of the speed that much higher.
I found the momentum particularly annoying when doing switching (my usual operations mode), so I cut it back to 5 or 10%--enough to not be instant, but not so much to where the delay is bothersome. I can press the down button and stop the train on spot to couple. I'll just as frequently use the reverse key, as that slows the loco down to a stop, waits a preset amount of time (I've got mine set to 5 seconds) and then starts moving the opposite direction at the same speed. 5 seconds is enough for me to make sure the coupling is secure, or to throw switch points, etc. Note that this ramp up and down is independent from the momentum setting, so if you've got a lot of momentum built in to your throttle setting, you can use the direction keys to stop and start quickly instead.
I've not found any control system that mimics the 1:1 throttle. Pushbuttons are sadly ill-equipped to relay that sensation.
Later,
K |
|
Tuscarora Railroad Blog
Friends of the East Broad Top |
|
|
Bret W Tesson
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:76
|
| 30 Sep 2009 02:12 PM |
|
Jerry,
I have a total of 9 Rev receivers installed in various engines and battery cars. So far (overall) I'm very pleased with the performance. Although there are issues (some of which you mentioned), the system is very easy to install, program, operate and most important it's reliable. I'll summarize my results with the Good, Minor issues and the Bad.
The good:
- Price is very reasonable
- Size is very small. I have a 4400mA 14.4V battery and receiver fitted in a 4 wheel bachmann coal car (that's one small battery car)
- Easy to install particularly in Aristo PnP engines
- Easy to program and modify settings
- Not that hard to install in USA disels (I like the adapter board that has screw terminals)
- Works great in Bachmann K-27 socket (and I assume the Bachmann mallet)
- Range is always good although tunnels and going behind mountains does affect reception (it is line of sight after all)
- Speed control is very good especially on battery power
- MU setup is very easy to do.
- Transmitter and display are easy to understand and see (even at night with the lighted display)
- I'll purchase the forthcoming trackside receiver unit which I understand will provide up to 20A and either PWC or linear output. This will be great for the longer trains or trains with lighted passenger cars that would overload the 5A capability of the existing Rev receiver.
Minor Issues:
- Most engines need the capacitor boards if oerating on track power. My two E-8s won't run reliably without them on clean SS track. It's intersting yours work fine without.
- I've had one Aristo Dash 9 that would immediately cause an overheat as soon as throttle was applied. Different receiver had same result. Looks like Dash 9 defect.
- Using the socket for the Rev receiever means hard wiring a sound card (i.e. you loose use of the socket for anything else). Too bad Aristo didn't add sound
- You can't presently upgrade the firmware on the transmitter without sending in the unit
- You can't send the information from one transmitter to another. You must program each seperately.
- You must purchase the large capacitor boards, and smoke control units seperately.
- Loss of link can occur for no reason on occasion. Changing cabs up and back down reestablishes link. Others have seen this same issue.
I know Aristo is working on fixes to several of these issues with future firmware releases.
The Bad:
- I've given up running my two E-8s (each with their own receiver) while pulling 9 USA streamliners using track power. Even with the capacitor boards, occasionally one of the engines will lose link and stop while the other is still pulling. I've tried everything immaginable and can't fix this issue. They pull fine together when using battery power. I believe this may be an E-8 issue as much as anything, but it's very frustrating.
- The Rev receivers produce a PWC voltage which is incompatible with some sound cards (Soundtraxx for one). Reportedly there are "adapter" boards available to help with this issue (at a cost).
- I have seen some (occasional) overheat issues while operating on sunny days even while pulling a light 10 car load. Happens with an SD-45.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the system and the flexability it provides for operating off of track or battery power. It seems the overall operatation is more reliable with better control when using battery power.
Just my experience to date....
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 30 Sep 2009 02:51 PM |
|
Bret, a comment on your E8 situation. I run DCC track power, and had a similar problem, one loco stopping. It was also with an 8 car USAT streamliner consist. What I found was that I was drawing a whole heck of a lot of current (3 e8's each with 6 extra pounds of lead).
I had a bad connection at a rail clamp, and under the heavy current load, I was actually resetting the QSI decoders. It was easy to see this because it reset the sounds. Of course I repaired that electrical connection.
The TE is much more sensitive to short term power glitches, as evidenced by Aristo saying you need the capacitor board for track power. Possibly your problem is power fluctuations that the capacitor board cannot handle alone. It sure fits the situation, since it does not happen to you on battery.
(Yes guys, I have an Aristo Rev TE at my house)...
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
jmill24
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:312
|
|
Bret W Tesson
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:76
|
| 30 Sep 2009 03:50 PM |
|
Greg, Thanks for that input. I never considered that. I'll search for a weak joint
|
|
|
|
|
Bret W Tesson
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:76
|
| 30 Sep 2009 03:53 PM |
|
Jim,
Nice layout and video. I'm glad to see yours work just fine. I'd sure like to put my E-8s at the front of that streamline consist and run them with Rev receivers onboard to see if the problem still persists.......Bret |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 01 Oct 2009 05:45 AM |
|
I appreciate everyone's comments, photos and videos.
One thought worth bearing in mind is that when installing a receiver into a loco it is a good idea to plug everything into it FIRST.
By this I mean to plug in the capacitor board (it plugs into the bottom of the receiver) and the smoke board and anything else both for easy access and so that you can install the plugs without putting pressure on the wrong parts of the circuit boards.
Also be sure to raise the small antenna to be sure to get the maximum reception distance (I forgot to do this on all three receivers I have installed so far).
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
markoles
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2076
|
| 02 Oct 2009 07:18 AM |
|
Jerry,
My experiences with the REVO have been positive. In two plug and play installations, both were pretty easy. The main difficulties I encountered were overcome by adding the capacitor boards.
I did a non plug and play locomotive last night, an old aristo FA. This is my post from an ongoing thread on the aristo board I started:
Two things got me that others should be aware of:
1. The non plug and play board allows for installation of the receiver in one of two ways. My first guess was correct, but problem 2 caused me to go in other directions. The board and receiver have printing on them, make sure you line those up correctly. I could not find this information in any of the literature provided or online. When installed correctly, the capacitor board plug slot interferes with the fuse on the non-pnp board. Not too bad, as I was able to sort of push it to one side.
2. The main problem yesterday was related to the old FA board. Wires coming from track pick up are black and white. Wires going to the motors are green and red. However, from the board itself to the old switch board, the colors do not match. I had a lot of 'fun' trying to sort that out, and eventually tore out the old board, which got me in more trouble than I was hoping for. I finally got it straightened out. Now, I have black wires pulling power from one side of the track and white wires from the other. The original way had white and black opposing each other on the trucks, which when wired together causes a nice easy short circuit. I believe I will have to adjust the B unit the same way or else I will have a short circuit situation again. (I think the wiring thing has been documented elsewhere, but I completely forgot while I was doing my initial wiring).
Anyway, once I sorted that out, the REVO worked well, although I had the whole shell off and no where to run it late last night. Once I get the B unit straightened out, I will take some pictures.
Tom asked about slow speed operations. I have found that the trains tend to run better at slower speeds, likely because of the cap boards. I like this system a lot better than my old aristo TE or power packs.
Mark |
|
Mark Oles
Millersvillanova Railroad, Lancaster, PA |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 02 Oct 2009 07:52 AM |
|
Posted By markoles on 02 Oct 2009 07:18 AM
Jerry,
My experiences with the REVO have been positive. In two plug and play installations, both were pretty easy. The main difficulties I encountered were overcome by adding the capacitor boards.
I did a non plug and play locomotive last night, an old aristo FA.
Hi Mark,
Your timing is perfect.
One of my FB-1s has a short so I thought I would start with it in adding the Revolution to some of my FA/B-1s. I did put very cheap decoders into a F1 ABBA and later removed them because their total current drain was greater than my MTS could handle and the cheap decoders were not dependable in multi-unit consists.
Someone had suggested using a single Revolution receiver to run both a FA-1 and FB-1 and I am going to try it.
I installed my 4th Revolution receiver yesterday for a friend. I finally remembered to raise the antenna.
As I installed it we talked about the options and he decided to try it without the large capacitor board (I did install the single capacitor) or smoke board. He will use the smoke switch on the E8 to control the smoke and even with the single capacitor that comes with the Revolution the E8 ran fine on my caboose layout with brass track that has not been cleaned in months. We will see how it works with his layout as well.
As you also found out I have learned to disregard the color coding in my FA/B-1s.
When I was at the HAGRS I bought some 4 wire and 6 wire harnesses and I will use one of them to wire the FB-1 to the receiver in the FA-1. It should work because the lights and smoke units will be getting their power from the rails and not through the receiver. To simplify my installation I will probably only feed track and motor power between the FA-1 and the FB-1.
For anyone who intends to disassemble an Aristo FA-1 or FB-1 the following shows a tool I invented years ago. I made it from a coat hanger that works beautifully to pull the top from the lower frame. Just insert it by the steps as illustrated and gently pry it up with a long nose pliers as shown:
Two cautions are that both the screws that hold the mud flaps(?) and the hand rails tend to push in at the bottom and against the frame making frame removal much harder. I remove the screws and pull the handrails back slightly and the frame comes out much easier. It is not unusual for dried paint to act as a sort of adhesive making frame removal difficult as well.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
East Broad Top
Moderator
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3607
|
| 02 Oct 2009 11:26 AM |
|
...- The Rev receivers produce a PWC voltage which is incompatible with some sound cards (Soundtraxx for one). Reportedly there are "adapter" boards available to help with this issue (at a cost). As I understand it, this problem exists between the Sierra diesel sound boards, not the steam ones. Why the difference, I don't know. I haven't hooked my steam Sierra up to the Revolution yet, but I got a wiring diagram from Stan Cedarleaf showing how to do that. (It's very straightforward from looking at it.) Later, K |
|
Tuscarora Railroad Blog
Friends of the East Broad Top |
|
|
markoles
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2076
|
| 02 Oct 2009 11:44 AM |
|
Jerry,
I have built up to FA to be the lead and the FB to be a slave unit, sort of like the real thing. I have 4 wire connectors, and when I removed the switches in the doorway, the four wires fit nicely through. I am running power pick up from the B unit, tying it in to the A unit to give a better overall power pick up. Then I have another pair of wires taking the motor wires back to the B unit. The last pair of wires is for the speaker that fits very nicely where the smoke unit fan used to be!! Now, I have stero sound!!
Mark |
|
Mark Oles
Millersvillanova Railroad, Lancaster, PA |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 02 Oct 2009 01:38 PM |
|
Posted By East Broad Top on 02 Oct 2009 11:26 AM
...- The Rev receivers produce a PWC voltage which is incompatible with some sound cards (Soundtraxx for one). Reportedly there are "adapter" boards available to help with this issue (at a cost).
As I understand it, this problem exists between the Sierra diesel sound boards, not the steam ones. Why the difference, I don't know. I haven't hooked my steam Sierra up to the Revolution yet, but I got a wiring diagram from Stan Cedarleaf showing how to do that. (It's very straightforward from looking at it.)
Later,
K
From what Stan told me the reason the steam units work is that the problem is the speed control for the sound units and the chuff contacts allow the steam units to work but they would not work on auto-chuff. This is the same sort of problem I ran into trying to get analog sound units to work under MTS. I finally found an old LGB schematic that worked with MTS and I intend to try it with the Revolution.
Stan had an adapter board that Sierra used to sell but apparently does not any more. Somewhere I think I have the Sierra Soundtraxx wiring diagram for their circuit.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 02 Oct 2009 01:41 PM |
|
Posted By markoles on 02 Oct 2009 11:44 AM
Jerry,
I have built up to FA to be the lead and the FB to be a slave unit, sort of like the real thing. I have 4 wire connectors, and when I removed the switches in the doorway, the four wires fit nicely through. I am running power pick up from the B unit, tying it in to the A unit to give a better overall power pick up. Then I have another pair of wires taking the motor wires back to the B unit. The last pair of wires is for the speaker that fits very nicely where the smoke unit fan used to be!! Now, I have stero sound!!
Mark
Hi Mark,
That is the sort of wiring I had in mind. I had already MUed my FA/FB-1's together (long before Aristo did) and I even added speakers to the B units but the sound systems I was using were unable to power two speakers (one in the A unit and one in the B unit). I plan to try to leave the switches in place as I intend to use them to control the smoke and lights.
Thanks,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 04 Oct 2009 08:04 AM |
|
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 02 Oct 2009 01:38 PM
Stan had an adapter board that Sierra used to sell but apparently does not any more. Somewhere I think I have the Sierra Soundtraxx wiring diagram for their circuit.
Jerry
Jerry, you're having too much fun with the REVOLUTION. 
Here's the diagram of the adapter board. It's just the first two pages which has the parts list and the major wiring diagram.
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stancedarleaf/Aristo%20REVOLUTION/Tech6%20Page%201-2.pdf
I'm not an electronics person and would have a hard time figuring out how to wire the thing from scratch. But I could put a kit together if I follow the numbers.
I have 2 of these boards in use and they work very well with the REVOLUTION and the Sierra diesel modules.
As mentioned, the adapter board is not needed for the steam modules when using reed switches to trigger chuff.
There are a number of posts with the explanation and images of the FABBA set that I'm running with one receiver. I did rewire all the F units exactly the same. They are daisy chained from the battery car, through three units and then to the lead unit. I used the All Electronics 4 conductor connectors used the red and black for power, yellow and green for speakers. With the hookup, I can run 1, 2, 3 or four units.
|
|
 
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
East Broad Top
Moderator
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3607
|
| 04 Oct 2009 09:00 AM |
|
Stan, thanks for clarifying what's going on between the Sierra and the Revolution. I believe the Sierra has a similar (or identical) issue with RCS. Since I've not hooked mine up to the Revolution yet, do you know if the idle sounds play on the Sierra steam sound without any extra circuitry? I know you need the opto-isolator for the RCS to get them.
Later,
K |
|
Tuscarora Railroad Blog
Friends of the East Broad Top |
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 04 Oct 2009 10:30 AM |
|
Posted By East Broad Top on 04 Oct 2009 09:00 AM
do you know if the idle sounds play on the Sierra steam sound without any extra circuitry?
Later,
K
Kevin.............. Now that you ask, I really haven't paid any attention to that. I'll make it a point to check it out later today and get back to you. I have standing sounds with the diesel module but that has an adapter board. They play as long as I have power to the unit.
I use a larger 1.2 amp hour 6 volt gel cell in place of the small OEM battery on the steam modules so I do think the standing sounds come on when I power up the unit. It's really funny that I never noticed. How come you ask such hard questions???!!!!???? |
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 04 Oct 2009 10:33 AM |
|
Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 04 Oct 2009 08:04 AM
Jerry, you're having too much fun with the REVOLUTION.
Hi Stan,
Is it really possible to have too much fun? 
Since the technical bulletin contains the basic information Soundtraxx apparently has no objection to sharing the information.
Here are the pages for the adapter board installation kit:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx1.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx2.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx3.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx4.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx5.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx6.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx7.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx8.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx9.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx10.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx11.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx12.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx13.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx14.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx15.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx16.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx17.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx18.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx19.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx20.jpg
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 04 Oct 2009 10:54 AM |
|
REVOLUTION to Sierra STEAM module wiring diagram that I'm using. I have all 4 sounds on buttons 1-4
1 is bell
2 is whistle
3 Hiss
4 coupler clank.
I have the bell button latched so I can have the bell ring as long as I like.... The bell with ring when crossing a track magnet as well.
The whistle on button two momentrary and I have the module programmed so I can "play" the whistle as I like. It will "toot" once when crossing a track magnet.
These options are part of the Sierra setup steps... |
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 04 Oct 2009 03:19 PM |
|
Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 04 Oct 2009 08:04 AM
There are a number of posts with the explanation and images of the FABBA set that I'm running with one receiver. I did rewire all the F units exactly the same. They are daisy chained from the battery car, through three units and then to the lead unit. I used the All Electronics 4 conductor connectors used the red and black for power, yellow and green for speakers. With the hookup, I can run 1, 2, 3 or four units.
Hi Stan,
Can you provide a link to your posts on your installation of the Revolution in the FABBA set?
Thanks,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 04 Oct 2009 08:17 PM |
|
Jerry.......... Here's some copy of my initial thoughts on the FABBA hookup posted on the Aristo Forum.
George... Great minds think in the same direction, eh????  I'm planning the same thing with an FABBA set. However, at this time, my plan is to power just the lead A and B unit and dummy the trailing B and A unit. All this is in my mind right now which is a very scary place to be.... Initially, I'm going to try to run both powered units from one receiver. I'll probably get yelled at for doing that but, I'm going to try it. As a beta tester for the new system, we're supposed to run them through their paces, right? The engineers design these toys to function the way they designed them. However, when they leave the security of the manufacturing plant, they're open game for whatever might be tried. (Warranty goes out the window in that case) It's my plan to put the batteries in the second B unit to power the system. Tests will be made with 14.8 Li-ion packs. At present, I have the capability of paralleling 2 4400 mhz packs up to 8800 mha with comfortable charging times. If the 2 locomotives shut down the receiver, I'll control each locomotive separately and "bind" them into one consist.When I helped Brandy make the initial tests with the NEW TE, we used 2 dash 9's each with it's own receiver and battery. We were able to MU them just fine. They ran as one unit very nicely. I'm not sure of the current draw difference between the dash 9's and the FA motors, so that will be part of the experiment. Sound will be added to the lead unit. I'll be using the Sierra Soundtraxx modules. The TE should be capable of triggering the bell, whistle and 2 other functions. Reed switches will be used for track magnet triggering as well. The Dallee systems should work nicely as well. All the above to try to answer your question... If you are going to power each ABBA or ABBBA, I would suggest onboard batteries in each unit with it's own receiver. With the NEW TE, you can fine tune each unit to run together. It will take some "tweaking", but when you've programmed and "bound" each locomotive together in a single consist and select the CAB # for that consist, all 4 or 5 locomotives will run as one. It would be best to select the same voltage and mha battery pack for each locomotive. With the new technology in batteries today, you should have no problem finding the right combination. Also, testing will need to be made to check run times with each locomotive. If one or more of the battery packs discharge before the others, a great drag will be created as one or more units will become non powered. Soooooooooo...... I would suggest that you test run times so you don't discharge any of the batteries completely. Stop running before any battery would discharge. That's the beauty of one battery source. When it discharges, all systems stop at once. However, that may not be suitable for the ABBA/ABBBA you're planning.Li-ions with a protective overcharge/undercharge board in them, will shut down completely when the shut down voltage is reached. ie: the 14.8 Li-Ions shut down at 9.6. They will read "0" on a meter. They ain't completely dead, the protective circuit shuts them down and they're ready to be charged. The 14.8's will charge to 16.5 or so then the protective circuit stops the charging.I'm not sure what the discharge curve is on NiMH, but they don't like to be fully discharged. Just a disclaimer here, George... I shore ain't no expert on all the tek-in-all stuff, I've just been running trains with all types of batteries for 10 years, made many mistakes, let out the magic smoke in different systems but I have all my trains running on batteries of various types, with numerous RC systems and have a ball doing it. Like my old High School Earth Science teacher posted in his classroom those 55 years ago, "Where would the turtle be if he didn't stick his neck out". That's kinda been my attitude. Sorry for the long epistle..... Hope it helps. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
After I had written this back in March, I tried, with great success, putting an FABBA consist together and running it with one receiver in a follow battery box car. I can't find the exact posts but they're embedded in threads on the Aristo Forum.
Here's a copy of a post I just made on the MLS MU thread at Marty's.
Posted By TonyWalsham on 01 Oct 2009 03:44 AM
Hi Stan.
Four powered FA's from one revolution is vey impressive.
Did you have the ESC fan cooled?
Tony... when I started on the FABBA consist, I was going to try using a receiver in each AB unit. When I had all the shells off and was hard wiring the 4 units together, I wondered if all 4 units would run on one receiver. It did and has been that way ever since. So far, I have not had to use a cooling fan. The units are hard wired together and connected using All Electronic's 4 pin connectors. Red and black supply power with the yellow and green connecting the Sierra sound to speakers in the A units. The battery car contains one REVOLUTION receiver, one 14.8 4400 Li-ion battery and a Sierra sound module with the adaptor board. Runtimes with the 14.8 4400 mAh are consistantly 2 3/4 hours. I'm doing tests with 18.5 volt 5200 mAh and have increased runtimes to over 3 hours.
I should qualify my runtime statements. Most of my train running is constant. I start the train with a fresh, fully charged battery and let it run until the PCB in the battery pack shuts it off. Change to a new battery and start all over again. The run times listed above are under those conditions.
Image of the test runs with just the FABBA chassis pulling 25 freight cars.
Then pulling 11 USA streamliners at Marty's using the 18.5 volt 5200 mAh Li-ion.
|
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 08 Oct 2009 06:33 PM |
|
Jerry,
Here is what I posted on another forum about my experiance with the Revolution.
I run brass track power and have two sound box cars. I program the sound system for the locos that I will be running that day. I was using trackside TEs.
I have been using the Revolution TE System in my diesels (and Blue Comet Pacific) since June. I have been experimenting with the various ways to install them.
I have installed them in locos. (More costly)
I have installed them in the sound box cars and run the motor outputs to the locos which I wired to receive the motor output directly to the motors and headlights. (Cheaper as I only need one Revo per box car)
After running these setups as various MUs and SUs I have gravitated to a style of running.
I run two trains, freight or passenger, with another one on a passing siding. I mostly use the locos with Revos installed. I set one of the sound box cars as MU1 and add a Loco or two to the MU list. I use the speed offset to match speeds. (it does not effect the loco when set to SU but it remembers it for the next MU run).
I do need another sound box car.
My sound box cars sense speed through chuff triggers (yep, you can do this with diesels).
So, most of my control activities are loco speed and sound stuff. I use manual horn, bell, rev up, rev dwn and vol up, vol dwn.
By using the * key I can toggle throught the MU locos and control the headlights on/off, smoke on/off. (one trick, use the #1 key for smoke so when you press the # key for the quick menu, it is easy to see that status of the smoke, on/off. If you use the #6 key, you have to scroll down in the menu)
So, my standard has become a Revo in every loco and a Revo in every sound box car. It may cost a little more but it gives me the controls that I want. The Revo makes MUing so easy that this way of running is easy to set up.
Next, I plan to install another smoke board in the locos to control cab lights. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 09 Oct 2009 07:56 AM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 08 Oct 2009 06:33 PM
Jerry,
Next, I plan to install another smoke board in the locos to control cab lights.
Hi Ward,
My plan (for the FA/B-1s without Plug n Play interfaces) is to run both an A and B unit from a single receiver but rather than make the installation any more complex than necessary I will leave the lights and smoke units controlled by the switches.
I am a bit confused about why you will be using smoke boards to control cab lights. Can you not just do that with the wiring harness from the Revolution Receiver?
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 09 Oct 2009 08:05 AM |
|
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 09 Oct 2009 07:56 AM
Posted By Ward H on 08 Oct 2009 06:33 PM
Jerry,
Next, I plan to install another smoke board in the locos to control cab lights.
Hi Ward,
My plan (for the FA/B-1s without Plug n Play interfaces) is to run both an A and B unit from a single receiver but rather than make the installation any more complex than necessary I will leave the lights and smoke units controlled by the switches.
I am a bit confused about why you will be using smoke boards to control cab lights. Can you not just do that with the wiring harness from the Revolution Receiver?
Jerry
Jerry - the six auxiliary control connections on the Revolution receiver are not designed to directly operate lights or other accessories. They are simple open collector outputs that are meant to operate sound card inputs and such. FYI, I have designed a circuit board for the Revolution receiver that will take the six auxiliary outputs and use them to provide six 0.5 amp outputs that can be used to control five volt relays, LEDs and other devices that run on 5 or fewer volts. I still have a few revisions to do on the web page that gives details on its design, use and capabiilties but I should be able to post a link sometime next week. Stay tuned. dave
|
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 09 Oct 2009 08:52 AM |
|
Posted By dbodnar on 09 Oct 2009 08:05 AM
Jerry - the six auxiliary control connections on the Revolution receiver are not designed to directly operate lights or other accessories. They are simple open collector outputs that are meant to operate sound card inputs and such.
FYI, I have designed a circuit board for the Revolution receiver that will take the six auxiliary outputs and use them to provide six 0.5 amp outputs that can be used to control five volt relays, LEDs and other devices that run on 5 or fewer volts.
I still have a few revisions to do on the web page that gives details on its design, use and capabiilties but I should be able to post a link sometime next week.
Stay tuned.
dave
Hi Dave,
I appreciate the information. As I've said I am a total novice with the Revolution.
Thanks,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 09 Oct 2009 09:09 AM |
|
Dave, I've been asked numerous times on the capacity of these 6 connections. Do you have an individual milliamp rating and max for all of them in a conducting state?
I haven't looked closely at my board, maybe I can see the device, but I suspect these may come directly from the micro.
Do you have any info?
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 09 Oct 2009 12:37 PM |
|
Jerry,
Dave answered your question as to why the aux functions can not directly drive lighting circuits. They can be used to control the smoke board which can be used as an on/off switch for devices up to 5 amp.
Dave,
I am very interested in your circuit board. I will be looking for a post announcing the web page is ready. |
|
|
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 09 Oct 2009 01:18 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 09:09 AM
Dave, I've been asked numerous times on the capacity of these 6 connections. Do you have an individual milliamp rating and max for all of them in a conducting state?
I haven't looked closely at my board, maybe I can see the device, but I suspect these may come directly from the micro.
Do you have any info?
Regards, Greg Greg - I believe that you should limit the current draw to 20 or 25 ma - I also believe that the outputs are buffered, not connected directly to the output pins of the processor. I'll be back home on Monday and will have a closer look that should allow me to find the device that is used. In any event, I would not use those outputs for anything other than logic signal connections... dave
|
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 09 Oct 2009 02:43 PM |
|
I know Dave, I keep telling people to use them as logic signals, but people KEEP insisting. If we found out what they really are, then people might stop thinking of dangerous uses of them.
Is there any other board from Aristo (other than the smoke board) which can buffer these up to 100-500 ma each?
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 09 Oct 2009 03:06 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 02:43 PM
I know Dave, I keep telling people to use them as logic signals, but people KEEP insisting. If we found out what they really are, then people might stop thinking of dangerous uses of them.
Is there any other board from Aristo (other than the smoke board) which can buffer these up to 100-500 ma each?
Regards, Greg
Greg - there is no other Aristo product that buffers the outputs - I have designed such a board and will be posting information on it sometime next week. It gives six buffered outputs that can each handle 0.5 amps - the board can be used to operate LEDs, 5 volt relays or any other device that operates on voltages up to 5 volts. dave
|
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 09 Oct 2009 03:17 PM |
|
Cool Dave!
Will you be putting bemf "snubber" diodes on it to protect the outputs if they are used with relays or other inductive loads?
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 09 Oct 2009 04:01 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 03:17 PM
Cool Dave!
Will you be putting bemf "snubber" diodes on it to protect the outputs if they are used with relays or other inductive loads?
Regards, Greg
The device I am using (ULN2003a) has them built in so there is no need to add additional diode protection. That said, I have a habit of always adding a diode across the terminals of a relay, "Just in case!" dave
|
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 09 Oct 2009 04:26 PM |
|
Looks good, 50v max on the internal clamp diodes should be enough. I always try to wire one right on the relay coil terminals, call me paranoid!
Will you be paralleling 2 of the outputs since you have 7 to work with, so you have one higher current one?
Looks like max package rating at 100% duty cycle takes you back to 100 ma each, did not look at the temp derating closely enough to see if that if a big factor.
Very cool... looking forward to seeing it and it will help a lot of people out.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
lownote
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3142
|
| 09 Oct 2009 04:52 PM |
|
Oops!!--somehow posted in the wrong thread
|
|
Evading the Midas touch of expertise
http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/magic/westover/ |
|
|
Bills
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:291
|
| 09 Oct 2009 08:50 PM |
|
Hi Jerry
I may have this wrong as it is long thread , but did you say you were planning to run up to 20 amps through your track? If so that seems excessive as your I believe track runs under your house. Sorry if I got the info wrong
Bill |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 10 Oct 2009 09:37 AM |
|
Posted By Bills on 09 Oct 2009 08:50 PM
Hi Jerry
I may have this wrong as it is long thread , but did you say you were planning to run up to 20 amps through your track? If so that seems excessive as your I believe track runs under your house. Sorry if I got the info wrong
Bill
Hi Bill,
Sometimes I mention a layout without being specific because it can get confusing in that I have several layouts depending on how a layout is defined.
My comment about the 20 amps was somewhat hypothetical in that I was comparing running a pair of Aristo-Craft F1-ABBAs with lighted coaches under MTS (impossible because of the MTS 5 amp limit) to the Revolution where theoretically two F1-ABBAs equipped with 4 decoders (one decoder per AB set) could handle up to 20 amps and actually more because the smoke and coach lights are independently powered from the rails..
The actual maximum power I have available to run my layouts is about 15 amps and when running two F1-ABBA pullings a total of 12 lighted streamliners I don't get near the 15 amps but the trains do exceed the power available through several of my remote controls. I expect the Revolution to resolve the problem because receivers in the locos should be able to draw as much current and volts as necessary.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 15 Oct 2009 04:02 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 09 Oct 2009 09:09 AM
Dave, I've been asked numerous times on the capacity of these 6 connections. Do you have an individual milliamp rating and max for all of them in a conducting state?
I haven't looked closely at my board, maybe I can see the device, but I suspect these may come directly from the micro.
Do you have any info?
Regards, Greg
Greg - I did some research on the devices that connect to the Auxiliary outputs on the Revolution. They are dual chip digital transistors (part # SUR521H) - the data sheet says that they can handle 100ma but I would not try that! I put some photos and some information about the Auxiliary Interface that I have been designing on my web page at: The interface is not quite done as the 5 volt version's regulator gets really hot when operated from higher voltages (15-23 volts) - I have ordered parts to change it over to a 12 volt system that should be more tolerant of higher voltages. dave
|
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 15 Oct 2009 07:03 AM |
|
Dave,
Are you expecting to offer this in kit form, as you do with some of your other projects? |
|
|
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 15 Oct 2009 07:25 AM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 15 Oct 2009 07:03 AM
Dave,
Are you expecting to offer this in kit form, as you do with some of your other projects?
More than likely, Ward, so long as the folks ordering the kit realize that the components are surface mount. I could redesign the board to take through-pin components but it would be quite a bit larger. dave
|
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 15 Oct 2009 07:42 AM |
|
Understand about the surface mount devices. Does that mean you were thinking of selling the board ready to go? |
|
|
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 15 Oct 2009 07:48 AM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 15 Oct 2009 07:42 AM
Understand about the surface mount devices. Does that mean you were thinking of selling the board ready to go?
Ward - that is a possibility - depends on the demand, if any! The cost would also be an issue as building them by hand is tedious.... I could go to an automated production company if demand was there....
dave
|
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 15 Oct 2009 08:22 AM |
|
Dave... changing the subject slightly in direction....
What is the possibility of producing the adapter board (or kit) for the Sierra diesel sound modules?
It eliminates the need for the 6 volt battery when running with battery power and filters out the PWC to the input terminals 7 & 8 on the Sierra modules.
I think the 6 volt battery would still be needed if the REVOLUTION is powered by track power.
Sierra used to sell the kits for $25 MSRP. |
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 15 Oct 2009 09:43 AM |
|
Dave,
My guess is that the board would only be desired by those who are willing to re-wire their locos for prototypical control of lighting. That kind of wiring work is not for most people. With two smoke boards I can control the things I want, smoke and cab lights. I would weigh the ease and cost of two smoke boards compared to your board. Just my thoughts.
I think there would be a market for Sierra adapter board. I just traded three Sierra units due to their not working with PWC. I would have kept them if I did not have to build my own adapter boards.
In any case, I will follow your development of any accessory for the Revo closely.
|
|
|
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 15 Oct 2009 10:06 AM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 15 Oct 2009 09:43 AM
Dave,
My guess is that the board would only be desired by those who are willing to re-wire their locos for prototypical control of lighting. That kind of wiring work is not for most people. With two smoke boards I can control the things I want, smoke and cab lights. I would weigh the ease and cost of two smoke boards compared to your board. Just my thoughts.
I think there would be a market for Sierra adapter board. I just traded three Sierra units due to their not working with PWC. I would have kept them if I did not have to build my own adapter boards.
In any case, I will follow your development of any accessory for the Revo closely.
Stan & Ward - I am unlikely to do any work on the Sierra circuit as I normally only work on projects that are of personal interest to me and I have no plans on installing a Sierra card in any of my Revolution controlled locomotives. I'l let you know if that changes. dave
|
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 15 Oct 2009 10:08 AM |
|
Aren't 2 Aristo smoke boards $30 street price?
To make these in small volumes is probably not going to make financial sense.
My opinion would be to provide etched boards and a parts list. The sierra boards would be nice, but demand has to be very low, no matter how many people want it, it's got to be very little volume.
But, maybe we can get Dave to do the artwork for one of these too...
If the parts are all surface mount, the boards should be easier to produce, since no drilling... but it seems you can never get completely rid of through hole components!
Regards, Greg
|
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 15 Oct 2009 10:48 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 15 Oct 2009 10:08 AM {snip}
But, maybe we can get Dave to do the artwork for one of these too...
If the parts are all surface mount, the boards should be easier to produce, since no drilling... but it seems you can never get completely rid of through hole components!
Regards, Greg
Greg, Great suggestion.
It sure would help if someone could make a "Do it by the numbers" drawing. Even a "through the hole" board would work.
I have all the schematics and a list of the components for the adapter boards but not able to readily decipher them.
|
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 16 Oct 2009 07:53 AM |
|
Here is the Soundtraxx Sierra circuit board:
I am waiting to hear from Soundtraxx if it might be possible to buy just the circuit board.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 16 Oct 2009 11:34 AM |
|
Stan, I think I understand your comment, I did not at first.
I have some documentation (I believe from you!) That shows various interface circuits for the Sierra to different locos/systems.
It looks like they used this board as a universal interface.
What is missing from my information is a complete schematic, which shows the "W" connections.
I could figure it out I guess, but all of the Sierra documentation seems to NOT have this info.
So, while it's a snap to put the parts in place, since the part numbers are silk screened on the boards, and all the interface schematics show the part values, it's the "W" connections that have been left off the interface schematics.
Weird... do you have a complete schematic of this board somewhere? I cannot find one, and not one that shows all 3 optoisolators.
Regards, Greg
|
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 16 Oct 2009 12:11 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 16 Oct 2009 11:34 AM
It looks like they used this board as a universal interface.
What is missing from my information is a complete schematic, which shows the "W" connections.
Weird... do you have a complete schematic of this board somewhere? I cannot find one, and not one that shows all 3 optoisolators.
Hi Greg,
I think what you are looking for is here:
The following is on an earlier post I made which covers the entire instruction manual...
Here are the pages for the adapter board installation kit:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx1.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx2.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx3.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx4.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx5.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx6.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx7.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx8.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx9.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx10.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx11.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx12.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx13.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx14.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx15.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx16.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx17.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx18.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx19.jpg
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Sierra/Soundtraxx20.jpg |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 16 Oct 2009 12:21 PM |
|
That's great Jerry! (I shoulda known you had this!)
Those are extensive instructions. Stan, with this data, is there still confusion?
I suppose you could rewrite the instructions to be specific for each install, but I see no problem here. Am I missing something?
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 16 Oct 2009 01:59 PM |
|
Greg, I have those same drawings in my files and have looked at them a number of times. I really have a mental block knowing what goes where. I guess if I were to study and try to figure it out, I might be able to make it. I don't have a board to to work with. That's why a diagram using regular "through the hole" boards and a related parts list would be easier for me. 
Fortunately, I do have a number wired boards to work with. But when they're gone, I'll need to dig into it much deeper.
Just thinking of the future..
|
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 16 Oct 2009 02:25 PM |
|
Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 16 Oct 2009 01:59 PM
a diagram using regular "through the hole" boards and a related parts list would be easier for me.
Fortunately, I do have a number wired boards to work with. But when they're gone, I'll need to dig into it much deeper.
That describes my situation as well.
Stan (or anyone), if it would help to have a bare board to create a diagram using through the hole boards I could loan one of mine as I have not yet started building a complete circuit. Perhaps the images below of both sides will be sufficient.
Unfortunately it appears that there are printed circuits on both sides of the board which may make designing a through the hole board more difficult.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 16 Oct 2009 02:34 PM |
|
Stan / Jerry - Designing a two sided through-hole board is not a big deal - if that is all you need I would be happy to copy the design for you. The problem would be the cost of fabrication for small quantities of boards - the company I work with (ExpressPCB) charges about $85 for boards big enough to make six of the ones you have. That would be boards with the silkscreen layer and solder mask. Boards without silkscreen & soldermask would be a bit over $60 for six. That would be a minimum of $10.00 per board - of course if you had several hundred made the price per board drops dramatically. The other option is to make a board that has only the components that are needed for the Revolution install - I gather that about 1/3 of the board is optional - please correct me if I read that wrong. That would bring the price down as the boards would be physically smaller.
dave
|
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 16 Oct 2009 02:56 PM |
|
Stan and Jerry, I guess I don't quite understand what more data you need, the board has the part numbers silk screened on it, like R4...
In the schematics you showed, it shows the value of R4.
The parts list is in the documents Jerry posted.
It's even step by step with boxes to check as you do it.
The philosophy of the board, is that it is general purpose, and what parts you use and what you connect is by application...
like " if you are using track power, connect W1 to the right rail, and W2 to the left rail".
The only you could possibly improve on it, is to re-do the check list so you had a customized version for each installation, so about 10 different sheets, or, maybe 20.
I think what you guys are asking for is a pre-assembled board, and since there are variations because of what sound system, what loco, what power, each one would be custom assembled.
There is no way that these could be made economically, you would have to charge about $60-$100 a board, depending on volume.
If you guys can think of a way I can help (other than custom assembling boards!) let me know, but I really think the sierra instructions are about a straightforward as it can get given the situation.
Regards, Greg
I cannot see how it could be simpler other than someone making the board for you with just the com |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 16 Oct 2009 03:17 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 16 Oct 2009 02:56 PM
Stan and Jerry, I guess I don't quite understand what more data you need, the board has the part numbers silk screened on it, like R4...
I cannot see how it could be simpler other than someone making the board for you with just the com
Hi Greg,
I cannot speak for Stan and to be honest I have not given this much thought as I have yet to install my first sound system with the Revolution but for me my concern would be that while I would not anticipate any problems building any of the Soundtraxx kits that I have I would expect to run into problems if I then tried to assemble a kit without a Soundtraxx board but instead with a generic circuit board (breadboard?) with nothing prewired.
It might be easy enough to work if only one side of the Soundtraxx board had a printed circuit but with both sides having circuits it would be hard for me to prewire both sides of a generic board and then add the components to it.
Actually from what I have been told the circuit may not even be necessary and it may be possible to work with a simple full wave bridge rectifier.
At this point I have just been providing documentation of my owner's manual and a copy of the board I have.
I may have comments, suggestions and or questions once I have actually installed a sound system into something. It has been 48 years since I went to an electronics school and I have forgotten 99% of what I once knew. I am more of a consumer than a constructor.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 16 Oct 2009 05:01 PM |
|
Greg,
Very simple for someone with an electronics background. Not quite so for us without one.
|
|
|
|
|
aceinspp
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:5191
|
| 16 Oct 2009 05:29 PM |
|
From what I've seen and from the boards that I built should be not problem. From what I understand all these components plus the circuit board where available from Radio Shack. Later RJD |
|
 RJD Chief Engr D & S RR SA# 2510 and the 200th member |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 17 Oct 2009 10:59 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Sep 2009 08:25 PM
One word of caution, but you have not had this problem. There are more than a couple reports of some FA units damaging the new TE. It's not clear why this happened nor any good data on if it is related to a certain "version" of FA. As with any system running a decoder, it never hurts to double check that the track pickups are isolated from the motor outputs, and the same goes for the battery inputs isolated from the motor inputs.
(some of these reports are on the Aristo site itself)
I've run into some variations on Aristo locos that could cause damage to any decoder, rare, but it has happened.
Regards, Greg
Hello Greg,
I just found this on the Aristo website and it shows how to avoid any problems if installing the Revolution (or DCC) into those FA-1's that might have a wiring problem:
"Some FA-1's with the new "Plug and Play" (PCB-1) PC Boards manufactured in late 2001 and early 2002 may have improper wiring. The wires from the motor blocks may have been improperly installed in the plugs on the PCB-2 "Bus Board". The wires from the motor blocks are color coded. Inspect the wires at the plug on the PCB-2. If the order of the wires is RED, BLUE, BLACK, WHITE, the wiring is improper. The proper order of wires from the motor blocks should be BLACK, WHITE, BLUE, RED. This is easily corrected by unplugging the motor block plugs from the PCB-2, removing the wires from the plugs, and reinstalling the wires in the proper order. Then plug the plugs back into the PCB-2."
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 17 Oct 2009 02:33 PM |
|
Yep, but I would not use that information for anything except a warning.
It has been shown time and again that you cannot trust the wiring colors in an Aristo loco. The only test the final unit on track power, so the intermediate wiring can be wrong. This is of course what has happened in this example, but the can be OTHER errors in the same loco.
The thing I ALWAYS do is:
1. Remove the shorting plug.
2. Verify that the left and right pins do indeed go to EVERY wheel they should, with an ohmmeter. (This is also how I find poor pickups, often several wheels have no pickup)
3. Verify that the motor connections indeed go to the motor, I actually check the resistance with an ohmmeter that can read low ohms.. if you don't have that, put some voltage to test that ALL motors move and in the right directions.
4. Now use the ohmmeter to be sure there are NO connections between motor and either track pickup wire.
Spending the 15 minutes to do this would eliminate 90% of the decoder meltdowns I have been "exposed to" by emails from people.
Hook up the decoder and verify proper operaiton.
Now, try the lights if they did not already work correctly, of course this is another whole topic to understand polarity, etc.
I trust no manufacturer, I have 15 minutes to invest on any loco. The only times in my life I have damaged controllers other then defective MRC ones (you know which ones Jerry) is a full lock stall that overloaded the decoder outputs, a QSI each time in an AML loco that could really draw current.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 18 Oct 2009 11:46 AM |
|
Amen to that, Greg. I never trust color coding of wires. Each manufacturer seems to have their way of doing things. Then you have the manufacturing errors.
Anyone who is willing to open up their loco or decides to run battery should have a volt/ohm meter in their toolbox. Lowes has one for $17 or $18. It is an "Ideal" #61-312. I have one for my work bench and I just bought my second one to keep in the train shed. |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 18 Oct 2009 02:38 PM |
|
I found one even cheaper, not the same quality, but has an important feature: more than one resistance scale, so you can tell the difference between a short circuit and the low resistance of motor windings. This helps a lot I have found. It's about $5-7 at Harbor Freight, and has a backlight and comes with the batteries.
The Ideal products are high quality, and I do, of course, have an expensive HP and a Fluke meter, but for the hobbyist, there is no "excuse" in not being able to afford a meter. Using a meter is not as daunting as people like to believe, and surely better than repairing melted wires!
I have several friends who have banished their 12v tester light to oblivion...
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
eheading
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:734
|
| 18 Oct 2009 02:45 PM |
|
I agree, Greg. In fact periodically Harbor Freight's multimeters are on sale for less than $4! I buy a few of them, and give them to friends who are over and need one! I find they don't last real long, but at that price, who cares???
Ed |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 18 Oct 2009 02:55 PM |
|
I do the same, I buy a number and take them to club meetings and hand them out... I got the last two at $4, what a deal. I keep two at home, and neither has broken yet.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 18 Oct 2009 03:28 PM |
|
You can't beat that price! I need to stop at HF and look for a miniature table saw. I'll have to check out that meter. |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 18 Oct 2009 04:11 PM |
|
The one I liked had 3 different ohms ranges, a yellow on off switch and was backlit.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Rod
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:6
|
| 30 Oct 2009 07:30 PM |
|
Reference the Revolution and SierraSoundtraxx card. May I suggest that you visit this page by Tony Walsham @ RCS-RC He has a voltage regulator and optically isolated unit "SSI-12v5" that works with the Sierra Sound card http://www.rcs-rc.com/index.php?page_id=1081 Rod |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 16 Nov 2009 09:29 AM |
|
I was reminded of the benefits of the Aristo-Craft locos with the Battery Switch and the Revolution on Saturday.
Friday I decided to get the Caboose Layout up and running in preparation of our club meeting on Saturday. That mainly amounted to using a leaf blower to remove a significant layer of leaves that had accumulated on it. Once those leaves were off I got ambitious and proceeded to remove the leaves from the main layout but that was more of a project and I could not finish accumulating those leaves and burning them on Friday
Saturday I realized that the level of the fallen leaves around the parking lot and gazebos had grown to the point that the leaves not only covered the ground but also covered remnants of my recent construction of the 2nd gazebo etc. including 4" x 4's and other building materials. Unless I removed those leaves before our club members started arriving someone could have tripped over the leaf covered objects and hurt themselves.
Out came the leaf blowers and I got the leaves burning only to have the fire get out of control and head toward the woods containing our 1,000 gallon propane tank. I barely managed to get the fire under control but by the time it was burning out it was time for the members to arrive.
I had earlier put a train on the layout but did not have time to connect any power supplies etc.
With no time to spare I quickly threw a battery into a boxcar, connected it to the E8 and by the time the first member arrived I had a train running!
A member brought a GP40 with QMI and Airwire systems so we plugged the battery boxcar into his loco and he was then able to run the train.
My point is that both myself and the other member normally run 100% track power but thanks to the Aristo E8 and GP40 with their Battery Switch and the Revolution plus his QMI/Airwire we had trains running with no time lost to connect any wires to anything.
The only power we used were some 14.4 V Ni-Cad batteries I took out of some Shark hand vacuum cleaners I had bought from a surplus store for $10.00 each which gave me:
1. battery
2. charger
3. vacuum cleaner
4. battery tester (vacuum cleaner)
The batteries last about an hour or so which is enough and when they run low I just pull one out and put in another (I bought 6 Sharks for $60).
Actually I now prefer the Ni-Cad batteries because when I used a Li On battery (from a different vacuum cleaner) I never knew when (or more importantly where) it was going to quit. With the Ni-Cad batteries the train starts running slower but still has enough power to get back to me for a battery replacement.
When I am running trains by myself I have all the time I need to bring out the power supply and anything else I may want or need but for club meetings it seems that we may start to plan on at least partial use of battery power at least as an assurance that something will be available to run on a very short notice.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 27 Mar 2010 03:38 PM |
|
It has been awhile since I last worked on my Revolution installations. Part of the reason was due to other things taking priority but to be honest to some extent I was intimidated about installing sound systems in new Plug & Play Aristo locos and installing the Revolution in older Aristo trains that have the old Aristo digital sound systems in them.
I finally got back to an installation I had started with putting a Revolution in an older UP FA-1 with an Aristo/PH Hobbies sound system.
Once my brain refigured out how everything was wired I rethought the process of putting DCC decoders into the FA-1/FB-1's. I had previous experiences with the complexity of putting DCC decoders into my FA-1/FB-1's because they do not have the motor circuit isolated from the track wire circuit.
My DCC project failed (in my expectations) because the very cheap decoders I was using were not dependable enough to run an ABBA consist with them and even if they did an ABBA pulling a dozen lighted streamliners would have far exceeded my MTS power supplies. The Revolution solved that situation by letting me put up to 15 amps on the tracks and letting the Revolution Receivers draw what they need to run leaving the rest of the amps free for the lights in the Streamliners.
I finally wired the Revolution along with the old Aristo sound system in a UP FA-1 (non-Plug n Play) and everything works just fine. I have track magnets connected for the bell and horn but I intend to change that to Revolution controlled bell and horn.
Today I tackled a new UP E-8 that I had installed a Revolution in. It turned out to be child's play to put one of the Aristo digital sound systems in it (OK so the sound system was for an ALCO FA-1 and the E-8 is EMD but to my ears one diesel sounds pretty much like another (I'm not a diesel guy and not having to pay for another sound system is far more important to me than having the correct sound system).
Once again the installation worked nicely.
So far I am not done since I have not connected the wires to activate the bell and horn on either the FA-1 or E-8 but I anticipate no special problems there.
What helped a lot was that I sold two F-1 ABBA's without the Aristo sound systems which helped pay for the E-8's, GP-40 and GP-38 plus freed up 8 sound systems.
At last the projects are moving ahead once again.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 Mar 2010 06:51 PM |
|
I bit the bullet yesterday and installed a Revolution into a ATSF Chrome Warbonnet E-8 that I had previously installed an older Sierra Soundtraxx digital sound system in (this was done before the Revolution was announced and I intended to just run the loco on track power).
The installation was easier than I had anticipated. The installed components included the Revolution, smoke adapter, capacitor adapter, and rectifier circuit. I also connected the Revolution to the bell, horn, brake and coupler clank sounds.
When I was done I put the loco on the rails and everything worked as it was supposed to but I was not sure if the sound was exactly as it had been before I converted it to work with the Revolution.
Today I brought out the other ATSF Chrome Warbonnet E-8 with the same sound unit but without the Revolution and I ran them both together. There was NO difference in the sound from the two E-8's so I went ahead and installed a Revolution in the 2nd ATSF E-8.
I have been putting this conversion off for as long as the Revolution has been out because I did not expect the older Sierra Soundtraxx sound system to work this well with the Revolution.
One thing I did run into when I put the E-8's back on the storage yard was that they did not want to run well at all because the yard's brass track has not been cleaned in several years.
The good news is that I will now probably start using the outside layout the yard is connected to.
Tomorrow I hope to add sound to the 2nd UP E-8.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
eheading
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:734
|
| 29 Mar 2010 07:18 PM |
|
Jerry, Congratulations on your two successful installs of the Revolution. I'm glad it is working so well for you. I sure like mine. I originally intended to just install a couple, but I am slowly replacing my old 27 MHz TE's with the Revolution. It definitely gives one a lot more control and flexibility.
Ed |
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 29 Mar 2010 07:44 PM |
|
Jerry, sounds like you are on a roll. Are you using the 6 capacitor board on your installs? That may solve the stuttering on your uncleaned brass track.
Have you tried the MU function of the Revo? Making and breaking MUd consist is really sweet.
|
|
|
|
|
ORD23
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:99
|
| 29 Mar 2010 08:08 PM |
|
I too have purchased the Revo and a six pack of recievers. I have yet to put in any recievers as I am bashing a few engines and have not come around to it yet. I do have a USA engine or two that I wanted to put recievers in. Have you or your friends tried that yet. Aristo sells a couple of boards that make it easier to hook up the Revo recievers to but I haven't researched which board is the one I need/want. I was going to tell you that Aristo had a bunch of "How to's" on their site but I see you already found it. Will be looking forward to future posts on the Revo, thanks and keep it up.
Ed |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 29 Mar 2010 08:10 PM |
|
Or make your own cap boards.
Jerry, be aware of the 25 volt limit on the cap board (of course 24v max is what is recommended by Aristo to the TE)
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 29 Mar 2010 08:12 PM |
|
Jerry, if you use the Sierra adapter board with the Sierra diesel modules, they will work better. The Sierra doesn't like PWM or PWC for running. The adapter board isolates the PWC and it works right nicely. It's not an issue with the Steam modules as the speed is controlled with isolated reed switches. The diesel relies on voltage control from the motors to control speed.
I believe Dave Bodner has a fix for it on his website as well. 
|
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 29 Mar 2010 08:32 PM |
|
Ed, if you are handy with soldering, just use the mounting board that comes receiver. Just a little more work to install than the board with screw terminals but it does the job. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Mar 2010 05:29 AM |
|
Posted By eheading on 29 Mar 2010 07:18 PM
Jerry, Congratulations on your two successful installs of the Revolution. I'm glad it is working so well for you. I sure like mine. I originally intended to just install a couple, but I am slowly replacing my old 27 MHz TE's with the Revolution. It definitely gives one a lot more control and flexibility.
Ed
Hi Ed,
Thanks, It has taken me a LONG time to get around to tackling the combination of sound and Revolution installations. I guess my past experience with analog sound and MTS/DCC had me intimidated.
The last time I tried to rum MTS/DCC I could not remember what numbers the various locos were set up for and I ended up just running the locos on track power. The big difference with the Revolution for me is not having to remember what a loco's number is (I realize there are other/newer DCC systems that I do not have or am not familiar with but that is not the issue here).
I also like the uniformity of the same button having the same effect (bell, whistle etc.).
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Mar 2010 06:40 AM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 29 Mar 2010 07:44 PM
Jerry, sounds like you are on a roll. Are you using the 6 capacitor board on your installs? That may solve the stuttering on your uncleaned brass track.
Have you tried the MU function of the Revo? Making and breaking MUd consist is really sweet.
Hi Ward,
Yes I did install the 6 capacitor boards with all the Revolutions. In this case I rebuilt the entire outside layout with stainless steel track and nickel plated turnouts but left the yards (in the garage and crawl space) with their old brass track and turnouts. I cannot really explain it but after rebuilding that layout I've hardly ever used it preferring instead to running the trains in the crawl space layout (that's where most of the trains and layout are). Part of it is that I LOVE to run trains in semi-darkness and I can turn the lights down low in the crawl space and simulate any time of day or night - plus I don't have to concern myself with what the weather is like outside.
In the past I could get by with very dirty tracks on this yard because I mainly ran F-1 ABBA's on it that were all MUed together which gave 32 track contacts per ABBA set. A single E-8 with 12 track contacts understandably has less contact.
I was fortunate when I first thought of building the crawl space layout because it runs under 75% of the house (on plywood suspended from the ceiling). I only have to clean the upper crawl space track once a year (if that) but the lower crawl space yard that feeds the outside layout is down on plywood just above the dirt and it has been several years since I used it other than to park the "outside" trains on it.
Cleaning it will be easy enough. I'll just put the LGB Track Cleaning Loco on it and it is perfect for cleaning track on sidings.
I have not tried MUing anything with the Revolution yet but that is a GREAT idea because I did not think to MU the two E-8's together. That would have doubled their track contact and probably solved the dirty track problem - at least until I get around to cleaning the track.
Thanks,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Mar 2010 06:59 AM |
|
Posted By ORD23 on 29 Mar 2010 08:08 PM
I too have purchased the Revo and a six pack of recievers. I have yet to put in any recievers as I am bashing a few engines and have not come around to it yet. I do have a USA engine or two that I wanted to put recievers in. Have you or your friends tried that yet. Aristo sells a couple of boards that make it easier to hook up the Revo recievers to but I haven't researched which board is the one I need/want. I was going to tell you that Aristo had a bunch of "How to's" on their site but I see you already found it. Will be looking forward to future posts on the Revo, thanks and keep it up.
Ed
Hi Ed,
Stay tuned because I will soon be installing a Revolution along with a sound system (either Aristo or Sierra Soundtraxx) into a USAT GP-38.
Item Code Description 1 List
CRE57000 TRAIN ENGINEER 2.4 GHZ 300.00
CRE57001 TRAIN ENGINEER 2.4 GHZ TX 200.00
CRE57002 TRAIN ENG. 2.4 GHZ RX 116.00
CRE57003 TRAIN ENG 2.4 GHZ RX (6PK) 575.00
CRE57072 G SMOKE BOARD 6 PACK 100.00
CRE57073 G SMOKE BOARD 22.50
CRE57074 RCC R/C ACCESS LIGHT SOUND 86.00
CRE57075 RCC-RC 5 WAY SWITCH 81.00
CRE57076 CAPACITOR BOARD FOR G 25.00
CRE57077 NON PLUG N' PLAY BOARD 25.00
CRE57078 NON PLUG N' PLAY BOARD AC 30.00
CRE57079 BRIDGE RECITIFIER BOARD 5.00
CRE57080 TX BATTERY NICAD BATTERY & CHG 25.00
CRE57086 CAPACITOR BOARD FOR HO 20.00
CRE57088 6 PIN ACCESSORY PLUG 6.00
CRE57089 EXT. BUTTON CORD 6.00
The board you need (CRE57077 NON PLUG N' PLAY BOARD 25.00) is probably included in the Revolution Receiver package (for non-Plug n Play installations). Optionally there are two other choices -
CRE57079 BRIDGE RECITIFIER BOARD 5.00
will give you DC output voltage
CRE57078 NON PLUG N' PLAY BOARD AC 30.00
includes the rectifier circuit for non-Plug n Play locos
I am aware of the Aristo board but I started on these projects when the Revolution first came out so I am progressing more based on my experiences than on anything on the boards (I'll look to the boards if I run into any special problems - thanks for reminding me).
Please bear in mind that I can only report my results and I am not qualified to say how well my results may work out with someone else's installations.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Mar 2010 07:07 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Mar 2010 08:10 PM
Or make your own cap boards.
Jerry, be aware of the 25 volt limit on the cap board (of course 24v max is what is recommended by Aristo to the TE)
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
That is a good point to make.
In my case I have an even lower maximum voltage to live with in that aside from the E-8's and GP-40 most of my Aristo locos (mainly FA-1/FB-1's) are older models without Plug N Play and ALL my Heavyweights and Streamliners have the 18 volt incandescent lights.
As a result I always run with a throttle set to 18 volts or less. My LGB locos might need more than 18 volts but at least for now I run them mostly on analog track power or under MTS/DCC.
Thanks,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Mar 2010 07:19 AM |
|
Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 29 Mar 2010 08:12 PM
Jerry, if you use the Sierra adapter board with the Sierra diesel modules, they will work better. The Sierra doesn't like PWM or PWC for running. The adapter board isolates the PWC and it works right nicely. It's not an issue with the Steam modules as the speed is controlled with isolated reed switches. The diesel relies on voltage control from the motors to control speed.
I believe Dave Bodner has a fix for it on his website as well.
Hi Stan,
I've got a few of the Sierra adapter boards but since they need to be assembled (soldered) I've been procrastinating about doing anything with them. I finally decided "the heck with it" and tried installing a Sierra system without the adapter board just to see what happened and I cannot hear any difference between Sierra Soundtraxx sound systems in an E-8 on track power and in an E-8 with a Revolution (without the adapter board but with the Bridge Rectifier Board - I did not try it without the rectifier board).
In both cases they were not running EMD sounds and ramp up increments were not very noticeable. My thought is/was to go back and install the Sierra adapter boards when I eventually get them assembled.
Are you aware of any potential damage PWC/PWM might do to the Sierra boards or if it is mainly a quality of sound issue?
Also do you have Dave's website address?
Between winter and a diagnosis of diabetes several months ago I've been distracted from running trains these past months.
Thanks,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Mar 2010 07:49 AM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 29 Mar 2010 08:32 PM
Ed, if you are handy with soldering, just use the mounting board that comes receiver. Just a little more work to install than the board with screw terminals but it does the job.
Hi Ward and Ed,
In my previous life (pre-retirement) I was a Factory Sales Representative for 3M Electrical Products. One of my VERY favorite product lines to sell was the 3M IDC (Insulation Displacement Connector) line (many people refer to them as "suitcase connectors").
Speaking as a fellow hobbyist (and NOT as a 3M representative) I can say that I have used them in a tremendous assortment of applications they were NEVER designed or tested for from radio control airplanes to model trains to train layout wiring. I have never once had one of these connectors fail in any application. Since this is outside their intended purposes I could not recommend them for purposes that exceed 3M's recommendations but...
Are all that I ever use to install my sound systems and I never seem to need a soldering iron. The difference between the UY and UY2 and the UR and UR2 is the thickness of the wires they accept. These connectors were designed and intended for installing telephone systems and 3M certainly never tested them for installation in model train sound systems.
I have been out of touch with 3M Electrical Products now for over 10 years but I would be surprised if they are not still available from any telephone supply store and the larger connectors can usually be found at electrical distributors. Radio Shack carries many of them but at much higher prices because of the small quantities in their packages.
Granted they are much bulkier than a simple solder connection but inside a diesel locomotive shell there is plenty of free space and for me quick and easy beats the heck out of a hot soldering iron in tight places.
I have literally used THOUSANDS of these connectors on my trains and layouts. They take about half a second to crimp. Granted some of my old distributors will sell them to me at close to their cost but if I had to pay retail prices I would still use them.
Jerry
Note: Since testing costs money and telephone companies tend to only use solid wire the 3M telephone connectors are only tested and approved for use with solid wires. I use them far more for stranded wire applications than for solid wires but understandably I cannot recommend that others do so. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 30 Mar 2010 04:13 PM |
|
Another day gone and not a lot to show for it.
I did follow up on the suggestion to MU the two ATSF E-8's - both to try running them together and to make it easier to park them on the siding with the dirty track.
When I MUed them the first thing I noticed was that sound came from both E-8's but the bell and horn only worked on one. I remembered that I had forgotten to connect the ground wire to the Sierra sound board so I opened that E-8, tapped into the ground lead (with a 3M UG connector) and connected it to the sound board ground.
Then I MUed them together again but still no horn and whistle from the 2nd E-8.
Then it dawned on me that I was MUing the motors and the sound board but obviously I was NOT MUing the bell and horn controls. That left me with two choices:
1. I could simply select the lead loco and use only its bell and horn or
2. I could MU them together as the SAME LOCO ID rather than with different loco numbers. Then both bells and horns would work.
I chose to leave them the way they are with separate ID numbers and only run the bell and horn from the lead loco. I don't quite understand why CAB 3 can be MUed with CAB 4 and also CAB 4 can be MUed with CAB 3. I would have thought there would only be one option but perhaps it is so that an A unit could be run alone or with a B unit but a B unit could not be run without an A unit.
Next I put the two E-8's back on the lower yard siding but this time I MUed them together and I then had no problem driving them to their siding and parking them. 12 track contacts instead of 6 made ALL the difference.
I then got out one of the Sierra RC Adapter Boards and assembled it because I was concerned that I might damage the sound board without it. Before going further I telephoned Soundtraxx and talked to their engineer who assured me that I would not damage their board but I might not get the full ramp up and down sound from a diesel sound board without the adapter. For the moment the sound is good enough for me so I will continue my installations without the RC adapter boards (they are out of production and I don't have enough of them anyway).
I will use the adapter board I built to test other Sierra sound boards before installing them with the Revolution to see if there is a major difference with any of the sound boards and I may selectively install a few of the adapters.
Now the challenge (for me) is to figure out how many sound units I have available and how to get the best use out of them. The F-1 ABBA's which now have sound boards in each unit will probably end up with sound boards just in the "A" units. I wish I had more of the old Aristo sound boards as they seem to be working very well even if I am putting ALCO sounds into EMD locomotives.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 30 Mar 2010 04:36 PM |
|
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 30 Mar 2010 07:19 AM
Hi Stan,
Are you aware of any potential damage PWC/PWM might do to the Sierra boards or if it is mainly a quality of sound issue?
Also do you have Dave's website address?
Between winter and a diagnosis of diabetes several months ago I've been distracted from running trains these past months.
Hi Jerry... sorry that I didn't get back to you on your question. I had an early breakfast meeting today, didn't get a chance to read all the posts and just got back into the 'puter.....
I'm glad you were able to talk with the folks in Durango who confirmed that there would be no damage to the board but as noted, you don't get the ramping effect. You will get ramping if you put the adapter board inline as suggested in the manual. You might want to adjust the RPM sensitivtiy in programming step #2 to medium. You can play with the 3 steps to see which you like the best.
Sorry to hear of your medical ills. Tain't fun...
Dave..... the Lazy Susan train is a hoot... |
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
dbodnar
1st Class Member
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:227
|
| 30 Mar 2010 04:38 PM |
|
Jerry - I believe that you may not have used the "*" key on the Revolution's transmitter to select the accessories in the 2nd locomotive in the consist. Here are some notes from a presentation I gave at the ECLSTS last fall.
•While operating a consist you can assess each individual locomotive’s accessory functions by pressing the “*” key
•Each locomotive’s name will appear at the top of the screen as “*” is pressed
•Use the 1-6 keys to operate sounds, smoke and other functions
I hope that helps.
dave |
|
Dave Bodnar
email: info@trainelectronics.com
web page:
http://www.trainelectronics.com
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 30 Mar 2010 04:49 PM |
|
Jerry, I was just composing a post for you to select each different locomitive in a particular consist and I see Dave just posted the solution.
When running a consist of a number of locomotives, each one has been put into the MU-"#". If you have 2 locomotives in the consist, they will operate as one locomotive for speed and direction. If you push the "bell" button, the first locomotive in the consist will react. Push the horn/whistle button and the horn/whistle will sound.
If you want to control the bell and horn/whistle in the other locomotive in the consist, push the "*" key and now that locomotive will show in the screen and you will control it's sounds. Speed and direction are still controlling both locomotives.
To return to the sound control of locomotive #1, just press the "*" key again. |
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 31 Mar 2010 07:10 AM |
|
Hi Dave and Stan,
Thank you for your responses. It will take me awhile to sort everything out and figure how best to get the rest of the Revolution installations done but hopefully the day will come before too long when everything will be installed, up and running.
I appreciate the suggestions and I will be following up on Dave's website.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 31 Mar 2010 06:37 PM |
|
Jerry,
Thanks for the info on the connectors. I have seen them in Lowe's I believe. I will pick some up to try next time I have a wiring project.
To add to what Stan and Dave already posted, using the "*" button to bring a different loco up on the screen also allows you to turn on and off the headlight of the trailing units.
That crawl space layout sounds neat. I have a nice dry crawl space under half our house. I have been wanting to use it for storage yards but the wifey is afraid I will be giving rodents a way to get inside. Like you, I like to run trains during dusk or in the dark with lots of lights. Sometimes when I have them running I leave them running until I go to bed just so I can occasionally go to the window and watch them running in the dark.
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 01 Apr 2010 07:16 AM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 31 Mar 2010 06:37 PM
Jerry,
Thanks for the info on the connectors. I have seen them in Lowe's I believe. I will pick some up to try next time I have a wiring project.
To add to what Stan and Dave already posted, using the "*" button to bring a different loco up on the screen also allows you to turn on and off the headlight of the trailing units.
That crawl space layout sounds neat. I have a nice dry crawl space under half our house. I have been wanting to use it for storage yards but the wifey is afraid I will be giving rodents a way to get inside. Like you, I like to run trains during dusk or in the dark with lots of lights. Sometimes when I have them running I leave them running until I go to bed just so I can occasionally go to the window and watch them running in the dark.
Hi Ward,
People who live on flat land probably wonder how a layout could be built in a crawl space. Our house is on the side of a steep hill (no basement) so the crawl space extends under about 3/4 of the house and is from 12' to 5' high. I hung around 40 - 50 sheets of plywood from the ceiling, made it strong enough to support my 300+ lbs and step by step built a layout on it that is suspended 4' below the ceiling. It is perfectly flat and has turned out to be a fantastic place to have a layout.
I never would have thought of it except for running out of space in the garage (wife rules) and the outside layout being limited by our circular driveway.
The outside access is blocked with a wood door but with a garage door there is no perfect way to keep rodents etc. outside. I keep poison, traps and sticky pads around to control the problem but I live in a rural area surrounded by woods so the critters will find a way in no matter what we do. The important thing is that the crawl space represents FREE space to build a layout.
My memory has gotten so bad that I have to read things several times before it sinks in. Eventually I will use the Revolution enough that I will remember what the functions are.
With the 3M connectors the thing to be careful of is to assure that the crimp is straight up and down with no sideways movement. This is pretty easy to do with the telephone (communications) connectors but a little more difficult with the larger connectors. I use the 3M tools to install mine but most contractors used their existing tools.
I actually sold more of these connectors than any other sales rep in the USA (literally millions) - probably because I found so many personal and unique uses for them. You probably already have a dozen or more (out of sight) in your home either in your telephone wiring or in table lamps etc.
Thanks,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 06 Apr 2010 06:51 AM |
|
I noticed the following on the Aristo Forum:
I checked the 6 cap board. Those caps are 35volt 2200uF. (Single caps are 25volt, 3300uF)
and
Our Revolution system is not tolerant of more than 24 volts, nor is the capacitor. We can't control what power system you're using, but please check the output first.
Apparently there have been failures of the single capacitor (possibly damaging the Revolution receiver) when non-Aristo power supplies that put out more than 24 volts are used (such as LGB power supplies). I know that I have measured the output of my Bridgewerks MAG-15 at 29 volts so that is a non-starter with the Revolution. I like my LGB and Bridgewerks power supplies and I am not trashing them. As a matter of fact (in addition to Aristo power supplies) I do use both Bridgewerks and LGB power supplies with the Revolution but they are throttled down to around 18 volts to keep from burning out the 18 volt lights in my older Heavyweights and Streamliners.
Caution should be used to assure that track voltage NEVER exceeds 24 volts.
Jerry. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 06 Apr 2010 07:15 AM |
|
As an update, I have decided to scale back some of my planned Revolution installations - at least until Dallee sound units are back in stock.
Any Aristo locos with the plug n play interface (E-8's and GP-40) already have the Revolution installed. The older Aristo (PH Hobbies) digital sound systems seem to work well with the Revolution but non-Aristo sound systems will first have to be tested with the Revolution to assure that they work properly. Sierra used to make an adapter board (discussed previously) and I've assembled 3 of them but with no more available I will have to exercise caution as I have more Sierra sound systems than I have adapter boards.
Additionally I've been rethinking my plans in that I have at least three F-1 ABBA's and that would amount to a lot of work to retrofit them and their sound systems to the Revolution. I may instead just leave them as they are and continue to use them with the regular Train Engineer.
Part of the reason is that unlike MTS/DCC when I have locos parked on hard to reach sidings I park the ABBA's as sets and since they are all MUed together I have 32 track contacts (8 per loco) to assure that they run no matter how dirty the track is. None of these locos have plug n play interfaces. If they did I would go ahead and put Revolutions in them.
The truth is that I've been overwhelmed with too many projects. Eventually I may return to the idea of putting Revolutions in them but not at this time.
You could say that Aristo locos were too good for my plans because with a LGB ABBA only the two A units have motors so a MUed LGB ABBA only has to link two locos. With Aristo F-1's both A and B units have motors and mine all have traction tires (which I love) so linking 4 F-1's is much more dependent on everything working properly than linking 2 F7's in a LGB ABBA set.
I also sometimes need full throttle to power a F-1 ABBA pulling 11 lighted Streamliners and with a Bridgewerks power supply I can see a possibility of accidentally exceeding the 24 volt maximum of the Revolutions. This is probably partially due to only having a single track contact from the power supply to the entire layout and not using any clamps (just rail joiners).
As I gain more experience with the Revolutions I may rethink my plans.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
TonyWalsham
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2172
|
| 06 Apr 2010 07:34 AM |
|
Hey Jerry.
I make an adapter board for the Sierra. The #SSI-12v5. It supplies a regulated 12 volts to the sound and controls motor direction and speed with an opto to convert pwm to filtered DC.
They are made up ready to go. |
|
Best wishes,
Tony Walsham
Remote Control Systems. www.rcs-rc.com/
 Modern technology. Old Fashioned reliability |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 06 Apr 2010 09:15 AM |
|
Posted By TonyWalsham on 06 Apr 2010 07:34 AM
Hey Jerry.
I make an adapter board for the Sierra. The #SSI-12v5. It supplies a regulated 12 volts to the sound and controls motor direction and speed with an opto to convert pwm to filtered DC.
They are made up ready to go.
Hi Tony,
I was not aware of that. It is good information to have. I may need some a bit further in the future.
Thanks,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Loco Lee
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:124
|
| 06 Apr 2010 09:45 PM |
|
The QSI will handel up to 32 volts, and has regulated throtle control, wich is perfect for MUing locos.
Loco Lee |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 07 Apr 2010 07:09 AM |
|
In my particular applications MUing can be VERY challenging.
As I work on getting my main outside layout up and running again there are multiple challenges both for me and for MUing my locos.
1. The storage yard brass track had not been cleaned in a very long time. Even two new MUed locos did not run well on it.
2. The yard is inside and I have to drive the trains through a hole in the house's cinder block and brick walls and then through a screened porch (I cannot see from inside to outside or from outside to inside). I have a remote camera but it has a limited view. I drive the trains outside with power from a LGB Jumbo with a LGB Tethered Remote. Once outside I disconnect the LGB power supply and switch to a different power supply or multiple power supplies. When done I drive the trains back inside where once again I switch to the crawl space LGB Jumbo power supply.
3. Once I got the train out of the porch (via remote opening doors) the train has to proceed down (and on return up) a 10% grade between the level of the outside layout and the inside yard. This is very steep and when pulling 12 lighted Streamliners with a F-1 ABBA the current demand is high and the pull on those heavy Streamliners is VERY extreme. The F-1 ABBA's handle it easily but without traction tires it would be questionable.
4. My older Aristo FA/V-1's have traction tires which I love but they do reduce track contact. Since Aristo does not use shoes/sliders a single FA-1 with traction tires has limited track contact.
5. These FA/B-1's were not factory MUed - I rewired them for MUing right after I bought them. They also not only do not have the Revolution interface but additionally the motor wiring is not isolated from the track wiring so to install a Revolution or other control system would require rewiring each loco.
6. The pollen level is currently very high and the tracks are coated daily with a green powder (pollen?) from the trees which further lowers track conductivity.
7. Because of the tremendous grip of the traction tires my concern regarding momentary lapses in remote control of any loco in the MUed consist is greatly magnified. If a single MUed FA/B-1 hesitates and its drivers stop while 3 other FA/B-1's keep turning the stress on the motor blocks would be extreme and could cause significant wear and or damage. There are 8 motors driving 32 wheels in the ABBAs and they all need to be turning in sync all the time regardless of track contact or conditions.
For this application I feel much more confident running under track power. The amps and voltage drawn exceed the output capacity of a regular Train Engineer or the other remote controls I have used.
Before anyone suggests battery power I should mention that the F-1 ABBA with 12 lighted Streamliners plus 4 sound systems draws up to 10 amps at up to 20+ volts. It would take a lot of batteries to handle that which would be very expensive, very complicated to rewire everything and almost impossible to install in trailing Streamliners plus batteries in Streamliners would be useless when pulling a freight train. Additionally the cost would be tripled to handle three F-1 ABBA's. Sometimes track power with a tethered remote trumps all others.
If I had new FA/B-1's with the Revolution interface I would go ahead and install the Revolution receivers in them.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 07 Apr 2010 07:22 AM |
|
I had tried installing older Aristo/PH Hobbies sound systems in locos with the Revolution. At first everything worked great so then I decided to wire the bell and horn to the Revolution receiver.
The problem came up in that the Aristo/PH Hobbies sound systems were designed for track magnets (or auto operation) and the reed switch wiring for the bell and horn DO NOT have a common side. I assumed that I could use a common with the bell and horn but when I tried it I blew the sound system. It is possible that I did something else that blew the sound board but I believe it was using a common from the Revolution receiver that caused the failure.
I am mentioning this in case anyone else may be considering using the older Aristo digital sound systems with the Revolution. It appears that they will work but only if the bell and horn are left on automatic.
In my case I am probably going to buy the Dallee sound systems that are designed for use with the Revolution and keep on using those older Aristo sound systems in locos running on track power. There may be better sound systems out there but I want to keep my costs to a minimum.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 07 Apr 2010 11:45 AM |
|
Hi Jerry,
Just a note on the 25 volt cap blowing. I had originally posted that it took out the Revo's RX board. I was wrong. Something funny is happening on the Railtrucks circuit board making the Revo act weird. I wired the motors direct to the RX and the board works well now.
I understand your MUing issue much better after your detailed post. In my post about MUing I was actually talking about the MUing feature in the Revo, not connecting the track pickups of each unit.
I wonder if each unit had it's own Revo RX w/6 cap board, the caps would carry them over the dirty spots better than straight track power? What I have noticed is some locos with poor power pick ups sputtered more on dirty track but with the RX w/ 6 cap board, they just slowed slightly on dirty track. Tha cap board smoothed out the sputtering. Of course, that is a lot more wiring and expense, like you said. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 08 Apr 2010 06:49 AM |
|
Hi Ward,
Thank you for the correction regarding the capacitor board. I had repeated what I had read - this is a good example of how information posted or quoted may not be accurate regardless of the intentions of the person who posted it.
I have also had a few instances with the Revolution equipped locos not running quite as smoothly as I expected but I suspect the reason is related to non-Aristo-Craft power supplies and other reasons I am working on identifying.
In my case I am working on a balance (based on what is important to me) between easy single loco installations and locos that may involve more work than I am willing to do. Part of this is because I try to keep everything as close to factory original for the time when I eventually have to sell everything (none of us stay healthy and live forever).
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 08 Apr 2010 09:51 AM |
|
Ward, I may have bad information on my site.
Can you do me a favor and shoot a picture of the side of the cap board that shows the voltage? I forgot to shoot the one I had for evaluation, and then someone reported to me, and also on the Aristo board, that the caps in the cap board were the same as the single 25v cap that now comes with the Revo.
Like to get the right info on my site. (can't believe I took 2 pictures of that dang board, both on the "wrong side")
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 08 Apr 2010 10:17 AM |
|
I was just ointed to this site from another forum.
Does anyone have the schematic how the single 25-volt cap connects to 24 volt power?
In all my years as an ielectronic designer of communication equipment nobody would have used a 25-volt capacitor in a 24-volt circuit unless the maximum voltage the capacitor could possibly "see" was a lot less than 24 volts.
I wonder why Aristo thought they could use a 25-volt cap here but uses 35-volt caps on their capacitor boards. |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 08 Apr 2010 10:21 AM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 07 Apr 2010 11:45 AM
Just a note on the 25 volt cap blowing. I had originally posted that it took out the Revo's RX board. I was wrong. Something funny is happening on the Railtrucks circuit board making the Revo act weird. I wired the motors direct to the RX and the board works well now.
Ward - I would suggest you post a correction on the Aristoforum. Your post of three days ago is still the last one there and leaves the impression there is a potential serious problem. Knut
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 08 Apr 2010 10:27 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Apr 2010 09:51 AM
Ward, I may have bad information on my site.
Can you do me a favor and shoot a picture of the side of the cap board that shows the voltage? I forgot to shoot the one I had for evaluation, and then someone reported to me, and also on the Aristo board, that the caps in the cap board were the same as the single 25v cap that now comes with the Revo.
Like to get the right info on my site. (can't believe I took 2 pictures of that dang board, both on the "wrong side")
Regards, Greg
Hii Greg,
I will post some photos later but I know that the single cap boards I have are marked 25V and the six cap boards I have are marked 35V. Some of the caps are blue and some are black but so far all have the markings of 25V for single and 35V for six.
Regards,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 08 Apr 2010 11:11 AM |
|
Great Jerry, will update the site. also, I was told the caps in the cap board are the same size as the single cap, but that does not make sense.
If you could take a picture in high resolution I could post it on my site. (if you don't mind)
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
LogSkidder01
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:30
|
| 08 Apr 2010 01:12 PM |
|
Just pulled open a loc with the 6 cap board and a track-side box with the single cap board. The single cap is 3300 uf @ 25 VDC, and the caps 6 cap board are 2200 uf @ 35 VDC. Same size makes sense given the difference in capacitance.
Ken |
|
| Ken
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 08 Apr 2010 02:38 PM |
|
Knut,
I edited my original post by removing the text concerning my belief that the RX was damaged when the cap blew. But, it may deserve a new post, as you say, so people following the thread see the correction. I will do that shortly.
Greg,
Will try to do the photos tonight in case Jerry does not get to it. You are right that it was posted on the AC forum that the caps were the same but the poster may have only been looking at the physical size and making an assumption.
Actually, I do not know why AC included a single cap board unless it was for those who wish to install the RX in smaller scale locos or on indoor locos where dirty track is not a problem. If it is for smaller scales, that would explain the lower voltage. I believe O scale is typically 18 volts and HO 13 volts?
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 08 Apr 2010 03:35 PM |
|
My site is updated to remove the erroneous information. Interesting about cap voltage, probably not an electrical engineer who picked the single one. Automatic answer on the right voltage from my own opinion and a few other ex-employees of mine that are electrical engineers: 35 volts... instant response from both of them.
You never mess around with overvoltage on electrolytic caps.. never..
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 08 Apr 2010 03:38 PM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 08 Apr 2010 02:38 PM
Actually, I do not know why AC included a single cap board unless it was for those who wish to install the RX in smaller scale locos or on indoor locos where dirty track is not a problem. If it is for smaller scales, that would explain the lower voltage. I believe O scale is typically 18 volts and HO 13 volts?
That makes a lot of sense - just surprises me that Lewis would not have stated that in the AC thread on this subject. I couldn't find any reference to the installation of either the two capacitor boards in the AC Revolution manual - is that covered anywhere in the AC documentation?
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 08 Apr 2010 03:42 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Apr 2010 11:11 AM
Great Jerry, will update the site. also, I was told the caps in the cap board are the same size as the single cap, but that does not make sense.
If you could take a picture in high resolution I could post it on my site. (if you don't mind)
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
Here are some photos:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Aristo-Craft/Capacitors1.jpg
There are 13 each 25 volt in both blue and black casings and
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/jerrymccolgan/Aristo-Craft/Capacitors4.jpg
There are six packs of 6 capacitors which are all 35V and again in blue and black casings.
The color difference may be due to the fact that some are from the first Aristo production run and others are possibly from the second production run (I did not separate them but just put them together as they arrived).
Sorry that all but one 6 pack are still factory wrapped but that is the only way I can keep track of what has or has not been installed. Still, I think the resolution on the linked photos should be good enough to read the markings.
If needed I can pull a single capacitor out because the single ones have had their receiver already installed with a six pack.
Regards,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 08 Apr 2010 04:19 PM |
|
Posted By krs on 08 Apr 2010 03:38 PM
I couldn't find any reference to the installation of either the two capacitor boards in the AC Revolution manual - is that covered anywhere in the AC documentation?
Hi Greg,
698 SOUTH 21 STREET
RVINGTON, NJ 07111
http://www.aristocraft.com/">www.aristocraft.com
973-351-9800
CRE 57076 CAPACITOR BOARD
FOR TRACK POWER USE ONLY
12000MF 35 V
THIS DEVICE PLUGS DIRECTLY INTO A SOCKET ON THE REVOLUTION RECEIVER (CRE57002) AND SUPPLIES CURRENT TO PROVIDE CONSTANT VOLTAGE OVER DIRTY TRACK OR POOR CONNECTIVITY IN TRACK LAYOUTS.
BEFORE YOU INSTALL THE RECEIVER IN THE LOCOMOTIVE, PLUG IN THE MALE PLUG FROM THE CAPACITOR BOARD MARK #1 TO THE FEMALE PLUG MARK #2 ON THE RECEIVER.
TO REMOVE THE PLUG FROM THE RECEIVER HOLD THE MALE PLUG AND PULL OUTWARD. DO NOT PULL ON THE WIRES TO REMOVE THE MALE PLUG FROM THE RECEIVER.
SERVICING:
Should your Aristo Craft/ Crest Product require warranty service, please return it in the original box, if possible protecting by a proper shipping carton. Aristo Craft/Crest is not responsible for any loss or damage incurred during the shipping. Be sure to include a brief but through explanation of the problem, with your name, shipping address, and phone number so that we may contact you if necessary.
and also http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...7000-3.doc
FOR THE RECEIVER:
Regards,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 08 Apr 2010 04:26 PM |
|
Ahh, the original one seemed to have 3,300 mfd capacitors, now the manual says the total capacitance is 12,000, which divided by 6 is 2,000 each.
So maybe some of the originals were indeed 3,300 mfd and 25 volts, but now it might be 2,000 mfd and 35 volts.
Jerry are yours 2,000 mfd or 3,300 mfd?
Man, it's getting tough to be accurate!
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 08 Apr 2010 04:45 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Apr 2010 04:26 PM
Ahh, the original one seemed to have 3,300 mfd capacitors, now the manual says the total capacitance is 12,000, which divided by 6 is 2,000 each.
So maybe some of the originals were indeed 3,300 mfd and 25 volts, but now it might be 2,000 mfd and 35 volts.
Jerry are yours 2,000 mfd or 3,300 mfd?
Man, it's getting tough to be accurate!
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
I know that there was a lot of field testing of the Revolutions which led to many changes (I was not part of the field trials so I know nothing about them).
It seems to me that all of the production 25V capacitors may be 3300uF and that all of the production 35V capacitors may be 2200uF (perhaps the reference to 12,000 may have been averaging and rounding down by 10% or so.
The 25V reference to O Gauge may be valid in that the Revolution does work with AC voltage as does O Gauge. Aristo lists the six pack as:
CRE57076 CAPACITOR BOARD FOR G which may reinforce this concept.
I installed a couple of Revolutions for a friend and he did not want to pay the extra money for the six pack and he does not seem to be having any problems running (G Gauge) with a single capacitor. Like me he has some older coaches with 18 volt lights so he too keeps his track voltage down.
All I know is what I read and what I get when I place an order.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 08 Apr 2010 04:57 PM |
|
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 08 Apr 2010 04:19 PM
and also http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/je...7000-3.doc
Thanks Jerry - That covers the six-capacitor board but nothing about the intended use of the single 25 volt capacitor. That one is really the issue because of the lower voltage. Knut
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 08 Apr 2010 05:15 PM |
|
It was a mistake, Aristo tried to defend using a 25 volt cap on a 24 volt system... or even a 22 volt system...
Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 08 Apr 2010 05:40 PM |
|
Posted By krs on 08 Apr 2010 04:57 PM
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 08 Apr 2010 04:19 PM
Thanks Jerry -
That covers the six-capacitor board but nothing about the intended use of the single 25 volt capacitor.
That one is really the issue because of the lower voltage.
Knut
Hi Knut,
That is beyond my level of knowledge and training so I would not have anything to offer on the subject.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 08 Apr 2010 06:59 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Apr 2010 05:15 PM
It was a mistake, Aristo tried to defend using a 25 volt cap on a 24 volt system... or even a 22 volt system...
Greg
What do you mean "It was a mistake"? Should the 3300 uf cap have been a 35 volt unit and is that what they are shipping now?
|
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 08 Apr 2010 08:34 PM |
|
Greg,
Sent you some photos. Got to agree with you on this one. A mistake. |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 08 Apr 2010 10:50 PM |
|
You never run an electrolytic capacitor at or really near it's rating, especially inexpensive Chinese ones.
If you are "filtering" DC to 24 volts, you would expect spikes a fair amount over that, therefore a 25 volt capacitor on even 22 volts is not enough margin.
They should have used the next "typical" increment up, 35v is what I would have chosen.
Look inside any DC supply, you will see that the voltage rating is quite a bit above the "constant" DC level.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 08 Apr 2010 11:13 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 08 Apr 2010 10:50 PM
You never run an electrolytic capacitor at or really near it's rating, especially inexpensive Chinese ones.
If you are "filtering" DC to 24 volts, you would expect spikes a fair amount over that, therefore a 25 volt capacitor on even 22 volts is not enough margin.
They should have used the next "typical" increment up, 35v is what I would have chosen.
Look inside any DC supply, you will see that the voltage rating is quite a bit above the "constant" DC level.
Regards, Greg Greg - I know all that and I agree with you. However, has Aristocraft agreed that this was a "mistake" and are they going to correct it? Last I read on the Aristo forum both the designer and Lewis as his spokes person seem to insist a 25 volt capacitor was just fine. Regards, Knut
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 08 Apr 2010 11:16 PM |
|
Are you kidding?
Especially if I said it was wrong?
No, the official response was that you should not run over 22 volts, as I remember.
I'm banned from that forum, so I encourage you to ask over there.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 09 Apr 2010 07:33 AM |
|
Lewis has answered the question. His design guy stands by the design and they have run locos for hours using the single cap with no reported failures, using his brand power supplies.
I reported the 3rd failure of a cap, one other poster reporting two failures. The single caps have been packaged with the 2nd and 3rd production runs of the receivers (I believe) so they have been available since September? So, either Revo owners are not using them or are not having problems with them. My failure was caused by exceeding the stated design limits. I knew better, just didn't think about it. My fault.
While it appears to be a poor design, maybe Knut is on to something. Isn't the cap polarity sensitive? So there must be a brdige rectifer in the circuit. Is that and/or other components reducing the voltage the cap sees to below the voltage of the track?
I think I would be more upset if I paid for an expensive power supply for my G scale trains and found out it was putting out 29 volts to my lighted passenger cars instead of the 24 volts advertised. |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 09 Apr 2010 08:46 AM |
|
First question in my mind - what is the purpose of the single cap that comes packaged with the receiver?
If it's the same as the six-cap board just a lower capacitance and it connects to the same point on the receiver, then one could simply argue why is are 35 volt capacitor required with the 6 cap board and a 25 volt cap is deemed adequate for the single capacitor. Technically the working voltage required is the same in both cases.
Are there no instructions why a separate capacitor is included and what to do with the single cap in the package.
Second - if there is a bridge rectifier in the circuit, that would only drop the voltage 1.4 volts, with a Schottky bridge a lot less - not enough to bring it down to a level where a 25 volt cap would be acceptable.
Ward, your case doesn't really count - sorry. As I understand it you connected the cap across the motor. In that case the capacitor will tend to explode as soon as the voltage to the motor is reversed.
As to G-Scale power packs putting out more than 24 volts, that is a fact of life and needs to be taken into consideration when one designs a product for G-scale that runs off track power. 24 volts maximum is really a nominal maximum. Most of these power packs are not regulated. I would consider everything up to 26 volts acceptable if 24 volts is specified - 29 volts is really a bit too much but it happened. I have even seen some in the past all the way up at 35 volts but that was corrected.
The other point of course is that G-Scale power supplies don't put out "pure" DC. There is always some ripple and in some cases that can be a volt or two. That will drive the peak voltage that the capacitor "sees" over the voltage one measures with a DC meter (which averages out the ripple). You need a scope to see what a particular power pack really puts out.
Comes back to the purpose of the cap and the actual circuit it operates in. Being an electrolytic it's obviously not connected directly to the track.
Knut
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 09 Apr 2010 08:50 AM |
|
I would encourage anyone who is concerned about the capacitors used with the Revolution should check out the Aristo Forum's discussion on them.
The problem with discussing it here on this topic is that it does not include the information and experiences from a variety of people.
Perhaps the best comment is:
I feel I've opened an unnecessary bag of worms. The goal of the forum is to help each other find solutions to problems and share our experiences with Aristo Crafts' products.
This product has been in the market place for almost a year.
To the best of my knowledge, no one else has had a problem with the capacitors during this time.
I inadvertently put the product in a "worst case" scenario, and then, was stupid enough to do it again within an hour or two.
My goal was not to find fault with the product, or to question the design, remember no one else has had a problem to this point.
If the problem comes up, which is unlikely for most of us, there is a proposed solution. Let's try it, and give this subject a rest for awhile.
Remember, the Revo itself did not fail........a peripheral device did.
Ward's comments are to be found there as well. Perhaps the key point is that only two failures seem to have been reported and both appear to have been due to user error. Neither seem to have damaged the Revolution receivers involved. Also important (in my opinion) is that the discussion includes comments by people far more qualified than me to discuss both sides of the capacitor issues.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 09 Apr 2010 09:24 AM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 09 Apr 2010 07:33 AM
I think I would be more upset if I paid for an expensive power supply for my G scale trains and found out it was putting out 29 volts to my lighted passenger cars instead of the 24 volts advertised.
Hi Ward,
I have several high quality power supplies that put out more than 24 volts including a Bridgewerks that I've measured at 29 volts (varying according to my house voltage which tends to be higher than normal). My LGB 21900 Auto-Uncoupling Switchers (which I LOVE) require high voltage to operate their uncoupling function.
The Bridgewerks MAG-15 exceeds the 24 volt maximum (I believe all Aristo products have a maximum of 24 volts) and often cause my older Aristo Train Engineers to overheat and eventually shut down until they cool down. As an Aristo engineer told me long ago I was pushing my luck and it is a standard of the electronics industry to have a tolerance that can vary from component to component. I may be lucky in that another TE may have failed as I am abusing the tolerances.
When we start mixing technologies whether it is between regulated and non-regulated power supplies or pulsed voltages such as MTS/DCC, analog track power and PWC/PWM strange things may happen. One manufacturer such as LGB may focus their engineering and products for pure DC voltage, another like MTH may focus on AC and DC and another like Aristo may focus on PWC while others (LGB again included) may focus on MTS/DCC.
Whenever we start mixing brands of trains, power supplies and control systems (or sometimes even within the same brand) we have to assume some things are going to fail.
As you suggested I was upset when I found my MAG-15 was putting out 29 volts but eventually I found that I could live with it and actually be happy with it. I ended up buying a Bridgewerks UR remote control which handles the 29 volts and gives me the track voltage I want.
The truth is that I have been unhappy at times with my trains, power supplies and control systems from every manufacturer. Sometimes I accepted their reasons and sometimes I did not but the result was the same - either I found a way to live with the warts or I got rid of the product and bought something different.
Even within brands time and innovation often obsolete older products. I have to adjust my use of the Revolution to accommodate my older Aristo trains with 18 volt lights. I'm sure that next year's Revolution will be somehow better than this year's Revolution and later versions will be better yet.
I agree with your comments. I've just adjusted my approach to accept that as long as I continue to mix and match my purchases I am going to have to accept that some things are not going to be the way I might prefer for them to be.
For me the Revolution is not perfect anymore than MTS, DCC, DCS or even my favorite analog track power is. Meanwhile I'll keep on finding ways to fit it into my layout operations because it has some pretty neat features I don't want to live without.
Thanks for your comments both here and on the Aristo Forum.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 09 Apr 2010 12:34 PM |
|
Not to belabor it any more (you guys are doing a fine job), but running a capacitor on a regulated 24 volt supply is a LOT different than on an outdoor layout with inductance, resistance in the rail joints, inductance in the feeder wires, voltage spikes, non regulated supplies, etc.
The fact that "spikes" can easily occur and most power supplies are not regulated is why you NEVER use a 25 volt cap in a "24 volt" circuit. With such a cheap component, just admitting a stupid mistake and using 35v caps would be the "manly" thing to do.
Making excuses or telling people to lower the voltage to 22 volts is, well, I guess if you read on other threads, it's typical.
I believe the cap is in the circuit AFTER the full wave bridge that connects to the rails. I don't believe there is any "inrush" resistor or typical circuitry that most designs use.
(Normally you put a resistor in series with one of the leads on the cap to limit inrush current when the cap is first charged, and you put an diode across the resistor in such a way so that "discharge" of the cap is not limited by the resistor)
Ahh.. but what the heck do I know... I must be wrong... just keep lowering the input voltage until it does not fail... ha ha ha....
Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 09 Apr 2010 01:22 PM |
|
Knut,
Just to clarify, I connected the cap to the cap plug on the Revo receiver, where it is designed to be connected, not across the motor leads.
As to the rest of the discussion, I bow to you and Greg on the technical details. And I will stick with the 6 cap boards. |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 09 Apr 2010 07:54 PM |
|
Sorry Ward - I must admit I just glanced over some of the words in these earlier posts. I took the "I was wrong" and "motor" parts from your post: Just a note on the 25 volt cap blowing. I had originally posted that it took out the Revo's RX board. I was wrong. Something funny is happening on the Railtrucks circuit board making the Revo act weird. I wired the motors direct to the RX and the board works well now.
and then combined that with the next post Thank you for the correction regarding the capacitor board. I had repeated what I had read - this is a good example of how information posted or quoted may not be accurate regardless of the intentions of the person who posted it. to jump to the conclusion that you somehow managed to wire the capacitor in such a way that it ended up being connected across the motor (or the output of the receiver which is essentially the same thing). If you hooked it up to the proper terminals and it still exploded, I would be rather worried if I were Aristocraft. Not because it may destroy the Revolution RX - that is really a trivial problem, it's the potential liability if someone gets hurt and with an exploding electrolytic that's quite possible if you're at the wrong place at the wrong time. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Knut |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 18 Apr 2010 09:17 AM |
|
I've had a few additional experiences with the Revolution that deserve to be mentioned.
First, I've been somewhat disappointed with my ATSF E-8's because they just did not seem to pick up track power as well as I thought they should. By comparison the UP E-8's (newer production I assumed) seemed to work much better.
I thought I would improve the situation by MUing the ATSF E-8's but even when MUed they just did not run quite smoothly.
Eventually I decided one of the trucks was not picking up track power so I checked the individual wheels only to be surprised to find that all wheels had good track contact.
I had so much trouble with the ATSF E-8's that I ended up going back to my FA/B-1's to pull the Streamliners out of the storage yard and out to the layout. Then I ended up pulling my ATSF Streamliners with the UP E-9's.
The only thing left that I could think of was my older Sierra sound systems that I had put into the ATSF E-8's - so I took the ATSF E-8's apart and disconnected the sound systems - and immediately the ATSF E-8's started running perfectly - just as the UP E-8's were.
I have no idea why the Sierra sound system affected the operation of the ATSF E-8's. They were not designed for use with the Revolution and additionally I had not installed the recommended Sierra adapter boards so I certainly am not blaming Sierra Soundtraxx for anything.
My point is that all my problems with the ATSF E-8's were self inflicted by my installation of a non-compatible sound system in them.
Second, while running the UP and ATSF E-8's around my outside layout I was somewhat disappointed in the very noticeable lack of distance that the Revolution transmitters could maintain communication (linking) with the Revolution receivers in the E-9's as they traveled the layout. The reception was nothing like what I had expected.
As I thought about this it suddenly occurred to me that once again my Revolution troubles were self-inflicted.
I was running my layout from the screened porch I had built to keep me out of the rain and minimize problems with mosquitoes etc. In effect I had unknowingly built a Faraday cage with the metal screens I had used for the screened porch. The metal screening was very effectively blocking the signal between the Revolution transmitter in my hand (inside the screened porch) and the Revolution receivers on the trains running outside the screened porch. My transmission range was effectively lowered to around 20 feet!
Fortunately years ago I had seen and experienced how a Faraday cage worked in 3M's high voltage labs where we tested (blew up) high voltage splices and terminations. No matter how well we built our splices, the engineers were always able to easily blow them up (they had up to 1.000,000 volts to play with) and show us exactly how the electricity destroyed our splices. We could stand inside a Faraday cage and simply hold a fluorescent light (not connected to anything) above the cage and the electricity in the air would illuminate the light but when brought below the top of the Faraday cage the light would go out.
I seem to recall similar problems with the original Train Engineers but since I normally only used the TE when outside the screened porch (and manual throttles when inside) I had never recognized the problems the screening was causing.
Now I have to decide whether to live with the problem or replace the metal screening with fabric screening.
The important thing is that two things that had indicated problems with the Revolution turned out to have nothing to do with the Revolution after all.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 18 Apr 2010 10:36 AM |
|
Actually, the Revolution is very sensitive to power, and anything except battery power requires the cap board at least. Your sierra's were evidently causing some electrical hash.
Sure you can remove the Sierra's, but the Revo is too darn sensitive. You can't argue that when Aristo tells you to use a cap bank the size of a horse's leg, and no other decoder on the market requires this for track power.
I'm glad you figured your problems out, but now you have to figure out how to make the sierra coexist with the finicky Revo, or you are forced to buy/use something else.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 18 Apr 2010 11:19 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 18 Apr 2010 10:36 AM
I'm glad you figured your problems out, but now you have to figure out how to make the sierra coexist with the finicky Revo, or you are forced to buy/use something else.
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
I had already decided to remove the Sierra systems and put them back into the ATSF FA-1's I had removed them from. I am going to keep the FA/B-1's on track power and put Dallee sound systems into the Revolution equipped locos. I was just going to run the ATSF E-8's with the Sierra systems until I got Dallee systems. I assembled three of the Sierra adapter boards and I might try a Sierra system with it in a GP-38 and possibly in one or two NW-2's but I think I'll standardize on the Dallee sounds for the E-8's and GP-40.
I've had some similar problems with using older sound systems with MTS/DCC. Sometimes it is best to live with what manufacturers (including sound manufacturers) designed their products for.
With diesels (especially outdoors) I'm not very concerned about which sound systems I use but when it comes to running steam locos indoors I get more critical.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
aceinspp
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:5191
|
| 18 Apr 2010 04:34 PM |
|
You may not be concerned with the sounds you use but some folks may ask you why you put a EMD sound in a Alco loco. Later RJD |
|
| RJD Chief Engr D & S RR SA# 2510 and the 200th member |
|
|
eheading
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:734
|
| 18 Apr 2010 05:51 PM |
|
Actually I have considered putting an EMD sound inside my Alco RS3. I understand that a number of railroads did in fact take out the troublesome Alco engines and replace them with EMD engines before they gave up on them all together.
Ed |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 18 Apr 2010 05:57 PM |
|
Posted By aceinspp on 18 Apr 2010 04:34 PM
You may not be concerned with the sounds you use but some folks may ask you why you put a EMD sound in a Alco loco. Later RJD
Hi RJ,
No one has ever questioned the sounds I put in my various locos. If they did I would probably tell them that my birthday is on May 17th and I look forward to receiving a gift of whatever sound system they think is appropriate. Actually it never occurred to me to wonder what someone else's opinion might be regarding what I buy and it would never occur to me to say anything to anyone else about the sounds they run or even if they have sound systems installed in their locos.
I was amazed to discover that some live steamers objected to the LGB Mikado sound system I put into my Aristo-Craft Live Steam Mikado. A few voiced their objections rather strongly. My Aristo LS Mike still has that LGB Mike sound system in it and it sounds fantastic.
My Aristo ATSF Warbonnet F-1 ABBA has four LGB 4235 diesel sound car sound units in them just as my LGB 2-4-0's have LGB 4135 steam sound car sound units in them. Its good enough for me. I just play with toy trains and if they go chuff, chuff, woo woo and ding ding I am happy.
Cheers,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 18 Apr 2010 08:50 PM |
|
RJ put a sound system in his Aristo LS too. At first people has the same reaction... then later (if I remember the story right), people came up and said it sounded pretty good.
Sound is a very subjective thing. I like to hear the differences in the different prime movers, but getting exactly the sound of the prototype is beyond my experience (only on a few real steamers) and really beyond my caring as long as I like the sound.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
ORD23
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:99
|
| 19 Apr 2010 12:40 AM |
|
Hi all, back to the capacitors. I bought a six pack of Revo receivers and all came with the 25v 3300uf. Do I have to use the capacitor at all? I have yet to install any receivers in any of my loc's yet. Was ready to install in one of my SD-45's first. I have been following this post for a good while now and am not sure what to do with the capacitor. I run off Bridgewerks power supplies and am not sure of the voltage output on them. Any suggestions? I am also using the Phoenix PB9's, should I have any concerns with that sound board or any other Phoenix boards? Thanks in advance.
Ed |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 19 Apr 2010 05:59 AM |
|
Posted By ORD23 on 19 Apr 2010 12:40 AM
Hi all, back to the capacitors. I bought a six pack of Revo receivers and all came with the 25v 3300uf. Do I have to use the capacitor at all? I have yet to install any receivers in any of my loc's yet. Was ready to install in one of my SD-45's first. I have been following this post for a good while now and am not sure what to do with the capacitor. I run off Bridgewerks power supplies and am not sure of the voltage output on them. Any suggestions? I am also using the Phoenix PB9's, should I have any concerns with that sound board or any other Phoenix boards? Thanks in advance.
Ed
Hi Ed,
I am not qualified to give you a precise answer to your questions but I would suggest that your first consideration should be to be sure that your Bridgewerks power supplies do not put out more than 24 volts to the Revolution (remember this is your track voltage - not the voltage through the Revolution to the loco). This is because some if not all Bridgewerks power supplies, like LGB, are designed to put out 24 and some put out higher than 24 volts for those locos that can handle it.
Saturday I was running a couple of E-8's pulling a total of 12 lighted Heavyweights and I had to be careful to keep the track voltage below 18 volts - because my coaches have 18 volt light bulbs. This is not a defect with Bridgewerks - just different design criteria.
As for the capacitors there has been some discussion regarding the voltage but I would not want to make any specific statements other than a friend is running Revolutions in his Aristo locos with no capacitors, others with a single capacitor and others with a six pack of capacitors. I am not qualified to discuss the technical aspects of the 25 volt capacitors. The purpose of the capacitors is to help over dirty track using track power.
I would suggest that you contact Aristo-Craft with your concerns about the capacitors and Phoenix about their sound board.
Phoenix can be reached at
Phoenix Sound Systems,Inc.
3514 West Liberty Road Ann Arbor, MI 48103 Toll Free: (800) 651-2444 Phone: (734) 662-6405 Fax: (734) 662-0809 Email:phoenixsound@phoenixsound.com
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 19 Apr 2010 06:04 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 18 Apr 2010 08:50 PM
Sound is a very subjective thing. I like to hear the differences in the different prime movers, but getting exactly the sound of the prototype is beyond my experience (only on a few real steamers) and really beyond my caring as long as I like the sound.
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
I totally agree. It has been my experience that few people have exactly the same opinion about the various sounds they hear. I have had sound systems I thought were terrible yet others commented that they liked them very much.
Long ago I stopped paying attention to buying a sound system that matched a specific model but instead I buy sounds that appeal to me (when I can afford it) or that match my pocketbook when I am trying to save money.
Even within brands I have locos that sound to me better with one brand and model of sound while other locos sound better with a different brand and model.
Regarding the Aristo LS Mike with the LGB sound system I think that was the first year the Aristo LS Mike was out and there were a lot of conflicting opinions about a "plastic" live steamer. Perhaps it was the introduction of a plastic live steamer combined with an electronic sound system that tipped a few people over the edge. Common sense prevailed and most live steamers now accept that a plastic live steamer can handle the heat (my fire proved that) and that electronic sounds should be tolerated by the community. I never had any problems with the Diamondhead organization - just a few individuals and some have turned into good friends.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 20 Apr 2010 06:59 AM |
|
Posted By ORD23 on 19 Apr 2010 12:40 AM
Hi all, back to the capacitors. I bought a six pack of Revo receivers and all came with the 25v 3300uf. Do I have to use the capacitor at all? I have yet to install any receivers in any of my loc's yet. Was ready to install in one of my SD-45's first. I have been following this post for a good while now and am not sure what to do with the capacitor. I run off Bridgewerks power supplies and am not sure of the voltage output on them. Any suggestions? I am also using the Phoenix PB9's, should I have any concerns with that sound board or any other Phoenix boards? Thanks in advance.
Ed
If you have no way of measuring the maximum voltage your particular Bridgewerks supply puts out, I certainly wouldn't use it with 25 volt capacitors. The issue is really the low voltage rating of the capacitors that are meant to be used with track power. In Large Scale, a 24-volt power pack means it will typically provide thatvoltage, not that the output voltage won't go any higher. I have measured the older LGB Starter set power packs at 25 and 25.5 volt output - Bridgewerks tends to go even over that. I would suggest you buy a basic digital multimeter and measure the output voltage of your supply. To get a peak reading in case there is ripple on the output, you can connect a capacitor across the output (higher rating than 25 volts of course) and measure the voltage across the capacitor.
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 20 Apr 2010 08:35 AM |
|
Posted By krs on 20 Apr 2010 06:59 AM
If you have no way of measuring the maximum voltage your particular Bridgewerks supply puts out, I certainly wouldn't use it with 25 volt capacitors.
I would go a step further.
The Revolution Receiver itself is rated for 24 volts maximum. Even with the 35 volt six pack of capacitors I would never use a power supply such as Bridgewerks or LGB unless I had a voltage meter (connected to the power supply track voltage) always visible to the operator.
Even then knowing that my LGB and Bridgewerks power supplies can exceed the 24 volt maximum and that it is all to easy for me or for someone else to accidentally turn the power up when a loco is running slow or stops I've decided to use the Crest (Aristo-Craft) CRE55468 24 volt power supply to power my layouts when running locos with the Revolution along with the CRE55467 Controller to further lower the voltage to 18 volts to protect the 18 volt lights in my older Heavyweights and Streamliners.
It could only take a second for a friend or visitor to "help" by turning up the voltage for me - and potentially blow any and all Revolution receivers on the layout at the time.
Don't get me wrong - I LOVE my LGB Jumbo power supplies and my Bridewerks power supplies will continue to be a favored power supply for my analog track power operations. It is simply a judgment call for me to protect my investment in the Revolutions (and those of fellow club members) by not using power supplies with voltage that is capable of damaging them. In my case I was expanding my layouts and I had already purchased a 55467/55468 set when they were first released and I will soon have them running both mainlines on the outside layouts.
For those who already have a Bridgewerks or LGB power supply and do not need or want another power supply that should not be a problem as long as care is taken to measure track voltage and avoid over voltage. Aristo-Craft locomotives seldom need more than 18 volts to run well anyway.
Most sound system manufacturers already warn against running a sound system without anything else on the track (to avoid peak unloaded voltages) so caution should be exercised if not using Aristo power supplies to assure that a no load situation of over 24 volts does not exist.
The Revolution represents a new performance standard and power control system requirement that may or may not be met by power supplies that were designed for and work very well with analog track power. Whether it is MTS, DCC, DCS, PWC, PWM or anything else there may be differences in power supply requirements. It has been my experience that nothing works perfectly with everything else.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 20 Apr 2010 09:11 AM |
|
Jerry -
I can't argue with anything you have posted, however, I do find it a bit ridiculous that just to run trains one now has to start measuring voltages and worry about peals and spikes which are pretty much part of model railroading.
A regular DC meter btw won't measure spikes or even the peak value of the ripple that might be superimposed on DC.
Running capacitors above the rated voltage can be a bit dangerous if they decide to explode - shouldn't happen if the are vented properly, but it does.
The revolution I assume will just graciously die with an over voltage.
And your 18 volt lights won't mind an occasional higher voltage either - they just won't last as long if you run them at too high a voltage but at least there is no chance they will explode. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 20 Apr 2010 11:54 AM |
|
Hi Knut,
In my opinion we are simply moving from one proprietary system to another and it is to be expected that manufacturers are not going to go to the expense of designing and testing their products to work with competitive products (why make it easier for their competition?).
The only non-proprietary system we have ever had has been plain old analog track power (still my primary means of powering my trains). While some might argue that battery power is non-proprietary I would tend to disagree because it usually depends on a proprietary radio control/train control system.
If I want to run MTS I switch to LGB power supplies and LGB MTS components driving LGB MTS decoders in LGB locomotives, streetcars etc.
If I want to run Aristo Track Power and sound systems I'll get the best results with Aristo products designed for PWC/PWM (I can never remember which is which).
If I want to run MTH's DCS I'll get the most capability with a MTH Z-4000 AC transformer.
If I want to run non-LGB DCC I'd probably get the best results with non-LGB DCC systems.
If I want to go with battery power I'd have to make a choice of which battery control system I wanted to use including...
If I want to go with R/C DCC operation once again I'm likely to find myself looking at proprietary systems.
I guess I need to add another switch position.
Of course this makes it difficult for companies that do not offer a complete system to compete with companies that do (I suspect that has a LOT to do with why and how things are designed).
It is unfortunate that our hobby is not expanding at a rate sufficient for all the manufactures to continue to sell profitable proprietary systems.
In the end we tend to find ourselves with one of three options:
1. live with our choice(s) of proprietary systems and accept limitations of what is available from those manufacturers.
2. expand our horizons and try mixing components from various manufacturers (at our own considerable risk).
3. stick with the old tried and true track power.
Perhaps the bottom line is what are we going to do when something fails and we have given the manufacturer a justified reason for rejecting a warranty claim because we chose to mix his product line with those from a different manufacturer?
I think Aristo-Craft deserves credit for making it so easy to connect their newer locomotives with battery cars and non-Aristo systems - if one is prepared to accept the challenge of making other systems work.
When I look at the relative prices between Aristo and LGB (as an example) I think it would be unreasonable for me to expect the same performance standards and voltage tolerances from much less expensive equipment.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
LogSkidder01
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:30
|
| 20 Apr 2010 04:23 PM |
|
A great deal of the frustration noted in this post is the result of manufactures failing to provide adequate specifications for their products. And for those of you who will say that cost is a limiting factor, NO!!! Management mindset, poor development practices and ignorance are the primary factors. If I can buy a complex, over the counter, highly regulated, extensively tested, diagnostic medical device for $100 to $200 with very compete specifications and instructions, I expect the the same for a $400 toy. At the $800 to $1000 level I can buy an Automated Electronic Defibrillator (Extensive specifications and compliance with many standards required). And what do I get with most model train products? Maybe non-annotated, exploded diagrams and lubrication instructions on VHS tapes!
DCC component manufacturers have been doing better in recent years, but have a ways to go. Now I can usually find the physical size of a decoder without buying one, but the electrical specifications still need significant expansion. Anybody really know how much a Revolution axillary output can drive?
And my favorite, AC power supplies / power packs / throttles the cost of specifying parameters such as line and load regulation, line and load transient performance, over current protection, short protection, leakage, etc. should be nearly zero, as the testing should have been done as part of the development process. Note also that many of these tests should also have been performed in order for the manufacturer to receive those little standards compliance marks (e.g., UL, CSA, TUV), And yes I have been responsible for designing, testing, certifying and supporting many linear and switching power systems.
For locomotives is it to much to expect for the manufacturer to specify the maximum voltage and current. The max voltage is easily assessed by reviewing the component specification (something even a novice design engineer can do), and the no load, nominal and / or slip and stall currents should have measured during development (and probably were). And although subject to a great many variables, some measure of pulling capacity would be greatly appreciated. LGB did provide guidance on pulling capacity for some loc's.
Also for those who still don's think it can't be done, take a look at some of the product specifications from the RC model car and airplane manufacturers. Although many manufacturers are still in the dark, many produce well specified products and components including motors, servos, receivers, transmitters, chargers, etc.
Jerry,
Sounds like an argument for STANDARDS, and maybe requiring manufacturers to meet the regulatory requirements for warranties. But that could mean working with a voluntary standards body, like say the NMRA, and maybe having the GOVERNMENT enforce more than the Health and Safety aspects of our current consumer protection laws when dealing with toy manufactures. Several years ago the Department of Commerce estimated that we spend tens of billions of dollars a repairing products which should have been covered by warranties, but received few complaints from "us the consumer". And for those lost souls who purchased extended warranties from Circuit City ; (
Regards,
Ken
|
|
| Ken
|
|
|
Del Tapparo
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:1224
|
| 20 Apr 2010 04:34 PM |
|
Posted By LogSkidder01 on 20 Apr 2010 04:23 PM
A great deal of the frustration noted in this post is the result of manufactures failing to provide adequate specifications for their products. And for those of you who will say that cost is a limiting factor, NO!!! Management mindset, poor development practices and ignorance are the primary factors. If I can buy a complex, over the counter, highly regulated, extensively tested, diagnostic medical device for $100 to $200 with very compete specifications and instructions, I expect the the same for a $400 toy. At the $800 to $1000 level I can buy an Automated Electronic Defibrillator (Extensive specifications and compliance with many standards required). And what do I get with most model train products? Maybe non-annotated, exploded diagrams and lubrication instructions on VHS tapes!
DCC component manufacturers have been doing better in recent years, but have a ways to go. Now I can usually find the physical size of a decoder without buying one, but the electrical specifications still need significant expansion. Anybody really know how much a Revolution axillary output can drive?
And my favorite, AC power supplies / power packs / throttles the cost of specifying parameters such as line and load regulation, line and load transient performance, over current protection, short protection, leakage, etc. should be nearly zero, as the testing should have been done as part of the development process. Note also that many of these tests should also have been performed in order for the manufacturer to receive those little standards compliance marks (e.g., UL, CSA, TUV), And yes I have been responsible for designing, testing, certifying and supporting many linear and switching power systems.
For locomotives is it to much to expect for the manufacturer to specify the maximum voltage and current. The max voltage is easily assessed by reviewing the component specification (something even a novice design engineer can do), and the no load, nominal and / or slip and stall currents should have measured during development (and probably were). And although subject to a great many variables, some measure of pulling capacity would be greatly appreciated. LGB did provide guidance on pulling capacity for some loc's.
Also for those who still don's think it can't be done, take a look at some of the product specifications from the RC model car and airplane manufacturers. Although many manufacturers are still in the dark, many produce well specified products and components including motors, servos, receivers, transmitters, chargers, etc.
...
Ken
Ken - I couldn't possibly agree with you more! This has been my pet peeve with this hobby since the day I started, especially with electronics. Since I now produce my own electronic products, I try to publish complete and accurate specifications. Not theoretical specifications .... test results! Like you said, these specifications (along with a complete operator's manual) give the potential customer the opportunity to gain knowledge of the product without having to purchase it. |
|
Del Tapparo
Custom Vinyl Lettering & Simple Low Cost Battery Power
www.GScaleGraphics.net |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 20 Apr 2010 05:06 PM |
|
Posted By LogSkidder01 on 20 Apr 2010 04:23 PM
Jerry,
Sounds like an argument for STANDARDS,
Regards,
Ken
Hi Ken,
I can understand the logic of what you are saying and if we were talking about huge companies with large research, development and testing facilities I would have a stronger similar attitude about it but the simple truth is that we are a very small hobby with products from companies that measure their sales in hundreds or thousands of units rather than hundreds of thousands and millions.
Before I retired I worked for a Fortune 500 company that measured its annual international sales in the billions of dollars. Even then our division (one of 50) had to work with small budgets on new products and we still had some significant failures with new products.
There is a big difference between standards and quality control. IBM personal computers had great quality control and they became the standard of the industry. Unfortunately that standardization made it extremely simple (and cheap) for competitors to crop up everywhere and literally price IBM out of the personal computer market they had created.
On the other hand Apple with their proprietary systems continues to survive and to thrive.
I have always sold proprietary products and while they are priced higher and are often not compatible with competitor's products it is the proprietary nature of such products that assure the profitability necessary for sales, marketing and new product development.
You made a good point about those little standards compliance marks (e.g., UL, CSA, TUV). Noticeably the only manufacturer I am aware of that had UL listing was LGB and their power supplies were significantly higher in cost. LGB's MTS products were also UL listed which I believe is why they were limited to 5 amps while unlisted DCC systems offer higher amps (I could be wrong on this but I think I am correct).
Right or wrong LGB wired their polarity backward from HO etc. so when NMRA stepped in they reversed the polarity that LGB had made standard for G Scale (which annoyed me greatly). That meant to be compliant manufacturers would have to put in a polarity switch which was a great way to introduce potential problems. - especially for products made with inexpensive electrical components.
Even outside our hobby there are many products that I find intolerably inadequate in performance. As a diabetic I need to check my blood glucose yet I have gone through 5 meters so far and found that the inaccuracy of the meters is unbelievably beyond anything I would consider acceptable.
I used to be active in R/C aircraft and as you say the standards are much stronger there but again the sales in that hobby far exceed anything in our hobby.
Actually I would be inclined to agree with much of what you said but I just don't think the small volume of sales and the small size (as far as I know) of the manufacturers in our hobby would support a major effort at standardization. I also tend to think it is too late in that MTS, DCC, DCS, R/C, Revolution etc. are now so far along that I cannot imagine anyone ever coming up with standards that would bring them together.
If anyone can do it I would wish them well.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 20 Apr 2010 05:08 PM |
|
We're heading off topic but still an interesting discussion.
As far as I'm concerned, only track power and DCC are non-proprietary.
MTS is a sub-set of DCC, so in that sense it's non-proprietary as well.
But all R/C battery systems and DCS are proprietary systems. Nothing wrong with that as long as the user understands what the implications are.
But still - if the system can be used with track power I expect it to function with what already exists (ie 24+ volts at the rails) especially if it has been around for many many years.
As to "standards" - just checked NMRA and was surprised to find that they still don't recognize that Large Scale uses a higher DC voltage than H0 - at least I found nothing looking at the relevant standards and RP's. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 20 Apr 2010 05:27 PM |
|
Posted By krs on 20 Apr 2010 05:08 PM
We're heading off topic but still an interesting discussion.
As far as I'm concerned, only track power and DCC are non-proprietary.
MTS is a sub-set of DCC, so in that sense it's non-proprietary as well.
But all R/C battery systems and DCS are proprietary systems. Nothing wrong with that as long as the user understands what the implications are.
But still - if the system can be used with track power I expect it to function with what already exists (ie 24+ volts at the rails) especially if it has been around for many many years.
As to "standards" - just checked NMRA and was surprised to find that they still don't recognize that Large Scale uses a higher DC voltage than H0 - at least I found nothing looking at the relevant standards and RP's.
Hi Knut,
I would personally have a very hard time accepting DCC as being non-proprietary. Even if I leave LGB and MTS out of the discussion I have run into too may differences between other brands including Massoth, MRC, NCE, and Digitrax (the ones that come to mind). When there is a different operating voltage for DCC with G Gauge and another for HO and decoders vary from brand to brand regarding their maximum voltage (often unpublished) I find it hard to consider it non-proprietary. When I add to this the inability of various DCC central stations and remotes to recognize and program decoders from other manufacturers again I have to conclude that DCC is proprietary.
When we look at track voltage for many years the 18 volt Aristo-Craft Ultima was the power of choice for Aristo-Craft locomotives and 18 volts was usually plenty of power unless someone was running LGB or similar locomotives that were designed for higher voltage. One could hardly fault Aristo if their motors were burned out by using the maximum LGB voltages or to fault LGB if Aristo power supplies put out insufficient voltage to run LGB locomotives at the speeds desired.
In my opinion our hobby has never had any recognized standards but instead each manufacturer tried to position itself to benefit from perceived or actual differences between them and their competitors.
In my opinion anything that can be said about Aristo-Craft not complying with standards would inversely apply to LGB and others. Unless there were standards agreed to and then ignored every company would and should be entitled to establish their own standards regardless of the standards of other companies. After all we are talking about toy trains with relatively small manufacturing quantities. Other toy companies don't concern themselves with compatibility with their competitors toys so why should we think toy train manufacturers should?
Heck, I'd be one of the first to say I liked it if it was true. I just don't think I have any right to demand it. After all it is their money and if they make the wrong choices we don't buy their products. That should be the motivation that guides our hobby.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 20 Apr 2010 06:06 PM |
|
Hi Jerry -
Well, if you consider DCC proprietary, I'm sure others then feel the same way, but that means that DCC has failed to deliver on one of its prime design criteria, ie being a non-proprietary system.
I consider it non-proprietary since pretty much any decoder by any manufacturer can be controlled by any DCC system - I'm not limited to a particular manufacturer. If manufacturer A doesn't offer a system or decoder that meets my needs, I can use manufacturer B o C or D. For a number DCC systems one also has a wide variety of throttles from different manufacturers one can use - Lenz is a good example of a DCC system that can be used with many different throttles.
Sure - everything isn't compatible with everything else, but what really ever is.
As to complying with 'standards'.......well, there weren't any when LGB started this "G-scale" Garden Railroad hobby in 1968.
I take the approach, if you want to play in my sand box and I was there first, you're welcome, but you need to play by my rules.
In the first 20 or so years of G-Scale, NMRA was absolutely not interested in working with the manufacturers to create some standards and then it was too late.
So, the polarity of G-Scale is reversed compared to H0. That's an arbitrary decision - technically either way works the same and there is no compelling reason to follow the smaller scales, but more to the point of this thread - I was a bit surprised that you quoted 18 volts as the maximum track voltage used by Aristocraft. Their Elite supply they sell today has a 23 volt setting (in addition to 18 volts and 13.xx volts) - they must see some need for that.
Knut
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 20 Apr 2010 07:09 PM |
|
Posted By krs on 20 Apr 2010 06:06 PM
Hi Jerry -
more to the point of this thread - I was a bit surprised that you quoted 18 volts as the maximum track voltage used by Aristocraft. Their Elite supply they sell today has a 23 volt setting (in addition to 18 volts and 13.xx volts) - they must see some need for that.
Knut
Hi Knut,
I cannot speak for Aristo-Craft's current products or the specifics of why Aristo offers the higher Elite 23 volts at 12 amps or Everest 24 volts at 15 amps. When the Everest was announced I seem to recall it was initially proposed for DCC applications. I've never owned an Elite so I am not that familiar with it. I would guess that Aristo is seeking to sell power supplies to customers who are using non-Aristo trains.
Most of my Aristo trains are probably 10 years old. When I look at a 1998-99 catalog the ART-5460 Ultima with 10 amps at 18 VDC was the top of the line for Aristo power.
I am sure that the replacement light bulbs for my Heavyweights and Streamliners are rated at 18 volts and I would think it would be a reasonable assumption to think that the motors and smoke units etc. would be optimized for 18 volts for those products made in or before 1998-99 if not later.
Further various instructions state "ALL ARISTO-CRAFT TRAINS locomotive, tenders, railcars, and accessories with operating features are designed to operate at proper capacity ONLY with ARISTO-CRAFT TRAINS power packs featuring "Pulse Width Control" (PWC).
Elsewhere it is stated "ART-5460 is only compatible with the Train Engineer System."
I was surprised to see that the Ultima is UL Listed.
I am not saying that Aristo-Craft trains would self-destruct at voltages higher than 18 volts or that 18 volts was the maximum track voltage. Instead I would suggest that they did not NEED more than 18 volts to reach their designed performance level and like today's Revolution if someone pushed them beyond their designed voltages with non approved power supplies that there would probably be potential for damage.
I would guess (just guessing) that current E-8's, SD-45's etc. are probably capable of handling higher voltages since Aristo is now providing power supplies up to 24 volts. I still would not complain to Aristo if I blew out 18 volt light bulbs in my 10+ year old trains. Actually 18 volts is plenty of volts to propel my E-8's every bit as fast as I want.
Once again this is not unique to Aristo-Craft. The first thing everyone says when installing non-LGB decoders into LGB locomotives is to check and adjust for the light and smoke voltages. LGB switched from 24 volt lights and smoke units down to 5 volts so Aristo switching from 18 to 24 volt power supplies is not that unusual.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
LogSkidder01
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:30
|
| 20 Apr 2010 08:53 PM |
|
Knut,
Some specifications and guidance did exist in 1968. The Gauge One Model Railway Association (G1MRA) was founded in 1947, and the European Union of Model Railroad and Railroad Friends (MOROP) was founded in 1954. So standards and guidance were available. Lehmann used the G1MRA track gauge specifications, but ignored the rest of the guidance. One LGB brochure, obtained at a toy show in Munich in 1968, noted that Lehmann track complied with the G1MRA standards and was working with these organizations to insure that “all” LGB products would comply??
As with current manufacturers, I can only assume that LGB could not get these organizations to modify the norms to conform to their products, they just ignored them.
Jerry,
I know that it is not directly relevant to the subject of the thread, but you should not be surprised to see that the Ultima is UL Listed. The question is why are some line connected products not listed or certified. NFPA 70, that is a voluntary standard often referred to as the National Electrical Code (NEC), “presumes” that installed electrical devices be certified to applicable electrical safety standards. This voluntary standard, or standards from other organizations such as the International Code Council (ICC), are often made mandatory through reference in local, county, state or federal ordinances. Check your home insurance, is there some vague reference to compliance with these codes or ordinances? So you have an electrical fire, and your insurer discovers that you had non-compliant products installed, a potential reason for denying a claim. Although I do not know of any homeowner claims denied for electrical reasons, I have seen claims denied for other code violations. I have been involved in commercial facility cases where electrical safety standards were not met, and damage and liability claims were contested.
Ken
|
|
| Ken
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 20 Apr 2010 09:31 PM |
|
Posted By LogSkidder01 on 20 Apr 2010 08:53 PM
Knut,
Some specifications and guidance did exist in 1968. The Gauge One Model Railway Association (G1MRA) was founded in 1947, and the European Union of Model Railroad and Railroad Friends (MOROP) was founded in 1954. So standards and guidance were available. Lehmann used the G1MRA track gauge specifications, but ignored the rest of the guidance. One LGB brochure, obtained at a toy show in Munich in 1968, noted that Lehmann track complied with the G1MRA standards and was working with these organizations to insure that “all” LGB products would comply??
As with current manufacturers, I can only assume that LGB could not get these organizations to modify the norms to conform to their products, they just ignored them.
Ken - I'm aware of G1MRA and MOROP but for G1MRA I only ever found specifictions related to track, wheel gauge, clearance, ie mechanical items, never anything related to voltage or polarity which is what we are discussing here and the MOROP standards re voltage and polarity were only published in the 80's.
I'm surprised to hear that Lehmann used the G1MRA track gauge specification, that's news to me. They certainly didn't use the G1MRA flange depth or the rail height - would have been better if they had - then we wouldn't have these oversized LGB rails and flanges today.
Knut
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 21 Apr 2010 06:42 AM |
|
Posted By LogSkidder01 on 20 Apr 2010 08:53 PM
Jerry,
I know that it is not directly relevant to the subject of the thread, but you should not be surprised to see that the Ultima is UL Listed. The question is why are some line connected products not listed or certified.
Ken
Hi Ken,
I agree that all line connected products should be UL listed or approved but over the years I have been surprised to find that a lot of them are not. UL is not a free service and it can be expensive to have products tested so some products are not tested and others are not tested for all applicable uses.
I've been told by one manufacturer that their products would easily pass the tightest UL standards but that for the limited production of their variety of products the UL testing was cost prohibitive.
It was my understanding that LGB tested to toy train standards while other companies tested to less stringent standards (this is just what I've heard and I don't claim that it is true).
In my personal situation I knowingly use a variety of products that were never tested, listed or approved for the applications I use them with because they were designed and marketed for the communications industry and not for the different insulations, voltages and amperages of toy train turnout motors and building lights etc.. I've sold and used them in so many commercial applications that I am personally very comfortable using them the way that I do.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 21 Apr 2010 07:01 AM |
|
A thought that occurred to me regarding the differences and changes in voltages that different manufacturers use is that it may be related to the move in the hobby from simple electrical (analog) circuits to more complex electronic (digital) circuits. Pretty much a move from analog to digital compatibility and digital components tend to have far less tolerance for voltage variations.
Both the older Aristo and LGB locos tended to use straight track power to operate motors, lights, smoke units etc. Perhaps Aristo found less expensive motors and power supplies that worked well with 18 volts and the Buehler motors that LGB uses required higher voltages.
As time progressed both Aristo and LGB moved to more complex electronic circuits and used those circuits to control systems rather than simple track voltage (lights now stay bright and smoke units work at a broader range of track voltages).
Whatever the reasons I think it would be understandable if an American company (Aristo-Craft) elected to not follow the standards of a German competitor and vice versa. The relations between the companies were not very good and I doubt that compatibility was an issue that either would have been interested in discussing.
I am not privy to the internal reasons for why either company did or does things and I am not an electrical or electronic engineer so I just accept whatever they do and work around it.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
TonyWalsham
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2172
|
| 21 Apr 2010 08:04 AM |
|
"Both the older Aristo and LGB locos tended to use straight track power to operate motors, lights, smoke units etc. Perhaps Aristo found less expensive motors and power supplies that worked well with 18 volts and the Buehler motors that LGB uses required higher voltages."
The LGB motors do not require higher voltages than the Aristo ones. The locos might, but not the motors alone.
This is because most LGB locos use the first 5-6 volts to power standing lights and sound etc. The motors themselves are quite happy giving a decent top speed when powered directly by 14 - 16 volts of batteries. |
|
Best wishes,
Tony Walsham
Remote Control Systems. www.rcs-rc.com/
Modern technology. Old Fashioned reliability |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 21 Apr 2010 08:55 AM |
|
Posted By TonyWalsham on 21 Apr 2010 08:04 AM
The LGB motors do not require higher voltages than the Aristo ones. The locos might, but not the motors alone.
This is because most LGB locos use the first 5-6 volts to power standing lights and sound etc. The motors themselves are quite happy giving a decent top speed when powered directly by 14 - 16 volts of batteries.
Hi Tony,
Thank you for correcting the information I posted. I've never installed a battery system so I was unaware of LGB's motor voltages.
Regards,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 21 Apr 2010 10:31 AM |
|
The original Buehler motors that LGB used were actually 12 volt (nominal) motors. But when LGB started in 1968, the DC voltage to the track was also specified at 14 volts. Don't know if LGB uses motors with a higher nominal voltage rating today, maybe Tony has checked into that further being in the business of interfacing with Buehler motors used in LGB engines.
In the picture below, Spannung means voltage. And btw - for an electric motor, the vltage specified is a nominal design voltage, it's not a maximum oprating voltage like with a capacitor or electronic circuit.
|
|
|
|
|
markoles
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2076
|
| 21 Apr 2010 12:24 PM |
|
I am glad I stopped by and read this thread.
Going back to the capacitors, I haven't installed any of the single caps. I did just purchase 6 revo's for my remaining locomotives and the 6-cap boards for them. I just checked my 'single' cap boards, and both are 25v 3300 mf. I guess I should chuck them. I am using a meanwell power supply that puts 24vdc out, and I get about 23.5 at the rails. |
|
Mark Oles
Millersvillanova Railroad, Lancaster, PA |
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 21 Apr 2010 05:08 PM |
|
Mark,
I just ordered 35V 3300uF capacitors from AllElectronics for $1.50 each. I plan to replace the 25v caps on the single cap board with the 35v and give that a try for my single motored, smaller locos. |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 21 Apr 2010 05:19 PM |
|
Posted By markoles on 21 Apr 2010 12:24 PM
I am glad I stopped by and read this thread.
Going back to the capacitors, I haven't installed any of the single caps. I did just purchase 6 revo's for my remaining locomotives and the 6-cap boards for them. I just checked my 'single' cap boards, and both are 25v 3300 mf. I guess I should chuck them. I am using a meanwell power supply that puts 24vdc out, and I get about 23.5 at the rails.
That's a tough one! The output voltage of the Meanwell is line and load regulated, so under normal conditions the voltage will stay at the output setting. I tested a 24 volt 6 amp Meanwell and the output remained constant within a few millivolts al the way up to just a bit over 6 amps and then dropped as the supply went into current limiting. With no load, the output voltage increased slightly but it was still less than 25 volts if I remember right. So even though I still think a 25 volt capacitor is really marginal, I would probably try it. Just don't stand to close to the capacitor bank and wear some safety glasses. The problem comes in should the Meanwell supply fail. It has over voltage protection built in which will trigger at 27 volts (again going from memory). So with a 35 volt capacitor there is no problem even under fault conditions but that's not the case with a 25 volt cap.
I don't know what else to suggest - a 25 volt electrolytic in a 24 volt circuit is just too marginal.
The Meanwell has a voltage adjustment on it - you could turn the voltage down as far as it will go - probably 23 volts or so, but that still doesn't address the possible failure mode and the 27 volt overvoltage trigger which won't change.
|
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 21 Apr 2010 06:08 PM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 21 Apr 2010 05:08 PM
Mark,
I just ordered 35V 3300uF capacitors from AllElectronics for $1.50 each. I plan to replace the 25v caps on the single cap board with the 35v and give that a try for my single motored, smaller locos. That's a good idea. Once you have them, could you report back if they fit size-wise.
There is no information on the All Electronic site as to overall size and lead spacing of the radial electrolytics they sell.
|
|
|
|
|
markoles
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2076
|
| 21 Apr 2010 06:33 PM |
|
Knut,
I think I'll just play it safe and stick with the 6 cap banks.
Mark |
|
Mark Oles
Millersvillanova Railroad, Lancaster, PA |
|
|
LogSkidder01
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:30
|
| 22 Apr 2010 09:59 AM |
|
The caps used on the single and six cap boards are standard 16 mm diameter devices with 7.5 mm lead spacing. 35 VDC caps from Epcos, Panasonic and other vendors are available from http://www.mouser.com, http://www.newark.com/ and http://www.digikey.com/ which have better search tools and selection than All Electronics. I replaced my caps with 35 VDC 3300 uf (P5171-ND ) Panasonic units from DigiKey and some 4700 uf Epcos units I had on hand. These caps are longer than the 3300 uf caps supplied by AC. As a precaution, I had already cranked the voltage down on all of the 24 VDC switching supplies. They are putting out about 22.5 volts. Ken |
|
| Ken
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 02 May 2010 11:23 AM |
|
The first of the Dallee Sound Systems arrived along with an ATSF Dash-9 so I've started with the installation.
The first thing I decided to do different is to use 3M Telephone Connectors (UY and UR) instead of bothering with a soldering iron, solder, heat shrink tubing and heat gun. This is not in any way intended to suggest that my way is a better way. It just happens to be how I chose to do it.
The instructions show:
The 3M UG telephone connectors are solder-less self-stripping self-insulating two conductor splices. The 3M UY telephone connectors are solder-less self-stripping self-insulating three conductor splices.
The connectors also include a silicone sealant to keep the connection moisture free (small heat shrink tubing does not include a sealant).
In the case of the single cut off conductors I used a UY connector to insulate the end of the wire to prevent accidental shorting.
The instructions were for the Dallee Sound System but since the Revolution black wire is needed for the Smoke Unit I just used a UR connector to splice the sound and the smoke units to the black wire. The wire that appears to be blue is actually the gray Dallee wire.
Unlike most heat shrink tubing (colored rather than clear) the 3M connectors are transparent which makes it easy to visually verify that the wires were far enough into the connector to make a good connection.
I was left with the yellow, orange and red wires that are unused. To insulate them I just cut them to slightly different lengths and made a sandwich of them between 3M Electrical Tape (which will be folded over covering and sealing the ends of the wires.
I should add that while I am retired from 3M Electrical Products Division and I sold millions of these connectors this IS NOT an application for which these connectors were designed for, tested for, or approved for. They were intended for use with solid telephone wires (only).
My personal use of these connectors does not in any way reflect official approval for this application by 3M.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 02 May 2010 02:57 PM |
|
I just finished a couple of test runs of the Dash-9 with the Dallee Sound System and everything seems to be working just the way it should.
This installation included:
ART23005 DASH 9 ATSF
CRE57002 TRAIN ENG. 2.4 GHZ RX
CRE57076 CAPACITOR BOARD FOR G
CRE57073 G SMOKE BOARD
ART29608 WIRES WITH PLUGS FOR SOUND INS
CRE29444 DASH-9 SOUND
The first test run was to check everything (especially the sound volume) before screwing the switch panel back on.
Actually the only disassembly required was to remove the six screws holding the switch panel in, pulling the panel out, installing the components and reattaching the switch cover. Actually there were two more screws to remove the smoke unit to replace the wires going to it.
When I started on the installation I decided to assemble all the wiring and components together but outside of the locomotive. I did not install the Revolution Receiver until all the wiring was first assembled in its final configuration. Next I attached all the devices and wiring to the Revolution Receiver and only then did I install the Receiver into the loco. Last I connected the plugs for the speaker and the power to the sound system.
As per the photos I did not reduce the length of the wires. As a result they were far longer than necessary but since I did not know what I was going to run into I decided to leave them their original length. On future installations I will probably cut the wires much shorter. I also used small cable ties to bundle the wiring before I stuffed it into the Dash-9.
I will note that the Dallee instructions caution that if the wiring is installed as per the Aristo instructions the sound will ramp up and down when the motor is switched off. There is a way to rewire this and instructions are provided but I do not find this to be a problem for me so I just followed the Aristo instructions. I happened to find that by switching the loco to battery power the sound system turned off so that is good enough for me.
Two potential problems I ran into were the positioning of the six pack of capacitors and the positioning of the sound board. If you are not careful you might end up putting them where they will interfere with the switch panel and Revolution Receiver. Since both the Revolution and the Dallee sound board are delicate it would be a good idea to double check everything before pushing it together. Since adhesive pads are used to install the sound board it could be damaged if placed in a bad location and had to be pried free to be repositioned.
Also worth noting is that the Dallee sound system DOES NOT include connectors to fit the Aristo loco main board sockets. That is why I needed the ART29608 WIRES WITH PLUGS FOR SOUND INS.
Since this was my first time working on either a Dash-9 or a Dallee Sound System it took me a lot longer than it would have if I had already done several installations.
I would not put the Dallee sound in the same class as Phoenix, Sierra Soundtraxx or LGB but then the price is not in the same class either.
All things considered I am quite pleased with the Dash-9 and the Dallee sound system for it.
I might add that since I now have a bit more experience with the Revolution Transmitters and Receivers, it took me only about one minute to program the Dash-9 Receiver.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 13 May 2010 06:28 PM |
|
Today I installed a Revolution receiver along with a smoke board, a capacitor board, extra weights and a Dallee sound system in an ATSF SD-45.
This was the 2nd SD-45 I put a Revolution in. The other one does not have sound or the weights. Previously I put a Revolution and Dallee sound system in a GP-40.
Overall the installations were pretty straight forward.
I was amazed at how much heavier the ATSF SD-45 with weights is compared to the UP SD-45 without the extra weights. I can see how the SD-45 will be a great puller and I look forward to seeing if it can pull all six Streamliners up the ramp. If it does (and I expect it to) I will be impressed.
While the Dallee sound system works well enough I can see why others want to put a better sound system in their Aristo locos. In my case it was a question of money. It was either more locos with Dallee sound systems or fewer locos with a better sound system. Quantity won out over quality. Considering the price I am happy with the Dallee sound systems.
All things considered I think it was easier to put the sound system in the SD-45 than in the Dash-9. While I did not have to remove the top from the Dash-9 there were only six screws to remove the top from the SD-45 plus I could then unplug the top from the frame and work on it without the frame and trucks getting in the way. Then too I would have had to remove the top to install the weights anyway.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 18 May 2010 07:58 PM |
|
I have finally finished with my planned installations of Revolution Receivers. There are some details to finish such as adding the rest of the Dallee sound systems when they arrive and more weights to the E-8's that do not have any but the actual Revolution Receiver installations are done. I have a few Receivers left awaiting the Consolidations when they are released and I may end up putting a couple in older FA-1/FB-1's that do not have the Plug and Play interface but for now I've decided against it.
As I was running trains today (with the Revolution of course) it occurred to me that the reason the Revolution appealed to me over other systems was pretty much the same thing that convinced me to go with LGB's MTS - They are both relatively idiot proof.
Granted there are far more complex and capable DCC systems than LGB's MTS but when it comes to installing a LGB decoder into a LGB locomotive the LGB decoders are pretty much plug and play with very little technical knowledge needed to install the decoders or to operate the MTS system.
If anything Aristo-Craft has gone LGB one step better in that Aristo-Craft locos are far easier to take apart and install the Revolution receiver (and Dallee sound system) in than even LGB's MTS system (except for the later LGB locos that came with decoders factory installed). Then too the Revolution talks back and forth with the Receiver and you KNOW when you do or do not have a link with the Receiver. With MTS/DCC it is more of a hope and a prayer that the link is intact since only the newer more sophisticated DCC systems have that ability (I think they do anyway).
To my mind the Revolution compares with Windows on a computer. I started with DOS (Disk Operating System) and once I learned how to program Basic and dBase and Lotus 1-2-3 and, and, and... I could get the programs to do just about anything I wanted to do.
Then along came Windows and virtually overnight DOS was overtaken by Windows. Remember the book "Windows for Dummies?"
In my opinion DOS was technologically far superior. What sold Windows was that it had a graphical interface with "WYSIWYG" (what you see is what you get). Most people simply did not need and did not want to learn to program their computers.
I think the same is true of the Revolution.
If you try to sell yourself on it being the best system - don't bother. There very likely are systems out there that will run circles around the Revolution.
If you try to sell yourself that Dallee makes the best sound system - don't bother. There are far better sound systems out there for more money.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I asked a question about DCC and the unanimous reply was always "buy a book" and "read a book" and "I recommend this book" and "go to a seminar" The truth is that I DID NOT WANT to buy a book or to read a book or to have to pay to go to a seminar. I wanted something that made my choo choo's go chuff chuff, woo woo, and ding ding - and I did not think I should have to become a technician to accomplish that (I never did buy a book on DCC or read a book or go to a seminar on it).
In short, if you want the very best and are willing to pay a premium price to get more features, a better quality sound and more "stuff" the Revolution may not be your best choice but...
If you are like me and you want something that is easy to install, relatively easy to understand, probably has all the features most of us want and has an option of a relatively inexpensive sound system including remote bell and horn I think most people would be very happy with the Aristo-Craft Revolution system. I know I am.
I am not going to get rid of my LGB MTS stuff or my Analog Track Power stuff or my MTH DCS stuff but there is a new presence on my layout in that my outdoor layout has been pretty much taken over with the Aristo-Craft Revolution.
The Caboose Layout (which also functions as our club layout) is now run primarily with Revolution controlled trains. The members bring their locos with a Revolution Receiver installed and they bring their Revolution Transmitters. I furnish the track, rolling stock and constant power to the rails.
The members can then set up their trains and run them at their convenience. Switching trains has become a major interest for the club members and the Revolution makes it a lot more realistic.
While no one is currently doing it, a side benefit of the new Aristo locos is the battery-track power switch. If someone ran battery power at home they could bring their loco and run it on battery power along with the rest of us who are running on track power yet we could all be using the Revolution system.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 18 May 2010 08:53 PM |
|
Jerry,
Great summary of your Revolution success. I think your theory on why the Revolution is so popular is spot on.
As a fellow Revo user I have been following this thread from the beginning. Enjoyed following your progress. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 19 May 2010 09:47 AM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 18 May 2010 08:53 PM
Jerry,
Great summary of your Revolution success. I think your theory on why the Revolution is so popular is spot on.
As a fellow Revo user I have been following this thread from the beginning. Enjoyed following your progress. Thanks.
Hi Ward,
Thank you for the kind words.
There are two issues that I don't think I emphasized enough and while they are not about the Revolution they (for me anyway) have a direct effect on how happy one may be with the Revolution.
They are:
1. Locomotive Weights
2. Clean Track
Regardless of whether one is running on track or battery power I found that my newest six axle Aristo-Craft locomotives (E-8's and SD-45's) worked very well on my outside layout with its stainless steel and nickel plated track but I had a lot of problems when I drove them inside through the yard where I park them.
My initial reaction was that it was the stainless steel and nickel plated track outside that was making the difference since the indoor yard was all brass and had not been well cleaned in years.
Eventually as I thought things through and noticed that I was having problems outside when I ran the locos through R3 cross over turnouts it finally dawned on me that a LOT of the problems I was having were related to the locos not having sufficient weight to keep all wheels on the track through 8' diameter curves and 8' diameter turnouts.
Not only are these locos larger and having longer wheel bases but these features were twisting the trucks partially off the rails as they went through the R3 turnouts.
I had not noticed the problem with a Dash-9 because I had not run it through the R3 cross over turnouts or inside on the yard which is full of R3 turnouts.
A secondary problem was that my eyes are not as good as they used to be and when I had run my LGB Track Cleaning Loco over the inside sidings several times the brass track looked very good to me but after I continued to have problems I got down close and found that the track had not been cleaned well after all. Rather than run the TCL more I got down and cleaned the track with a LGB 50040 Track Cleaning Block. That really fixed the conductivity issue but it did not fix the contact issue.
The contact issue (keeping all wheels in constant contact with the rails) is being resolved as I get more weights and install them in the locomotives.
Even for those running on battery power, unless all their curves and turnouts are 15' diameter or greater I suspect they will have problems unless their locomotives have sufficient weight to keep the wheels on the rails. I don't mean the locos have to be super heavy and if the locos are running fine with no problems I would not worry about it. If the locos seem to have problems going through turnouts or derailing I would suggest that the weight issue should be looked into.
Regards,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 19 May 2010 10:11 AM |
|
I'm glad you worked out a "system" that pleases you and works well in your situation.
Since you already run DC and DCC, it turns out that you can have better sound and better control for $31 less per loco, though.
Using prices from RLD, A Dallee $82 plus a Revo receiver $75 plus the Aristo mandated cap board for track power $19 = $176
A QSI unit that has sound on par with Phoenix, 30 controllable sounds, runs on DC also = $145.
Why am I stating this?
Many people are reading this and you make 2 statements that I believe are not completely accurate: In short, if you want the very best and are willing to pay a premium price to get more features, a better quality sound and more "stuff" the Revolution may not be your best choice but... If you are like me and you want something that is easy to install, relatively easy to understand, probably has all the features most of us want and has an option of a relatively inexpensive sound system including remote bell and horn I think most people would be very happy with the Aristo-Craft Revolution system. I know I am.
Given track power and the capability of the remote control system and the quality of the sounds, and no connecting wires between the sound and the motor controller (because they are both on the same module in the QSI)... the QSI is a lot better solution... the QSI is LESS expensive than your solution and the QSI is EASIER to install. Basically you are paying a premium price for the Aristo/Phoenix combination and getting less features and less control.
On the ease of installation, the QSI will win hands down every time over a Revo PLUS a Phoenix... it's all on one board, no wiring between them, and less space occupied. So, I suggest you try one out using your MTS or DC, it will save you $31 dollars on EVERY loco. (There's additional benefits to the QSI solution, like using a $45 box that works on DC with one or 2 locos and can control 30 sounds using your existing DC power pack, and the ability to control the bell and whistle with an ordinary DC power pack reversing switch) Food for thought... Regards, Greg
|
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
blueregal
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:1884
|
| 19 May 2010 11:48 AM |
|
Here Here! What Greg E. said above, I wholeheartedly agree, and have been saying that for a couple years now!! Works for me, and there is a way to have 2-3 setups to hook up to any engine and only invest in 3 decoders instead of the one in each loco. Oh Boy!! Let the beatings begin!! Hee Hee Regal p.s. don't want to start a revolution!! Hah LOL
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 19 May 2010 02:12 PM |
|
Hi Greg,
I have to admit that I am confused by your answer. I am sure that this is primarily because I know virtually nothing about QSI and not much more about DCC.
I should clarify that I am not attempting to make any sort of comparison between the Revolution and any other system. My topic is simply about what I like about the Revolution. I am not trying to talk anyone into going out and buying a Revolution or suggesting that I have made any sort of effort to learn about the Revolution's competition (I have not).
You said
Since you already run DC and DCC, it turns out that you can have better sound and better control for $31 less per loco, though.
Using prices from RLD, A Dallee $82 plus a Revo receiver $75 plus the Aristo mandated cap board for track power $19 = $176
A QSI unit that has sound on par with Phoenix, 30 controllable sounds, runs on DC also = $145
and
Given track power and the capability of the remote control system and the quality of the sounds, and no connecting wires between the sound and the motor controller (because they are both on the same module in the QSI)... the QSI is a lot better solution... the QSI is LESS expensive than your solution and the QSI is EASIER to install.
Basically you are paying a premium price for the Aristo/Phoenix combination and getting less features and less control.
On the ease of installation, the QSI will win hands down every time over a Revo PLUS a Phoenix... it's all on one board, no wiring between them, and less space occupied.
So, I suggest you try one out using your MTS or DC, it will save you $31 dollars on EVERY loco.
To keep things in perspective my topic is simply about me and what I have done with the Revolution. To keep everything fair I will restrict my comments to what led me to my decision to buy the Revolution and related products. This was not a dramatic moment when I somehow had a sort of awakening and said to myself "I just have to rush out and buy a Revolution." Actually when the Revolution was released I was underwhelmed and I never gave it a serious thought.
When Aristo announced the Chrome Warbonnet E-8's it was love at first sight.
I just knew that I had to have the Chrome E-8's and I would sell my FA-1/FB-1 Warbonnets to help pay for them. I don't even remember where I bought them. I put Sierra Soundtraxx FA-1 sound systems (out of the FA-1's) in the ATSF E-8's (yes I know the FA-1's are ALCOs and the E-8's are EMDs but in effect the Sierra sound systems were free.
Later when the E-8's were actually being delivered I saw the UP E-8's at St. Aubins and they ended up replacing my UP FA-1/FB-1's. I still had no interest in the Revolution. The UP E-8s were going to get the Aristo FA-1 sound systems from the UP FA-1s.
Later still I bought the CRE55467 15 AMP CONTROLLER and CRE55468 EVEREST POWER SUPPLY. This was all for track power.
Then I was in Illinois and stopped by St. Aubins where I saw that Aristo had a Cotton Belt GP-40 so that came home with me.
A friend bought the Revolution and I installed it for him in a SD-45. I liked what I saw. Later I was going to go to Marty's and I decided the Revolution would make it easy for me to bring the UP E-8's to Marty's where I could have run them on Marty's battery powered layout.
By now I had 5 Aristo locos that came with the Revolution interface and I had not actually purchased a single new sound system - but I had bought the Revolution. I still have a couple of dozen MRC decoders plus several Digitrax and some LGB and Massoth decoders as well that are part of projects I was working on before I bought the Revolution but of all the MTS/DCC Remotes I have only the Massoth has a graphic interface.
Even more important is that my MTS/DCC systems are TOTALLY INCAPABLE of competing with the Aristo-Craft Revolution because my MAXIMUM MTS/DCC power (Central Stations) is limited to a MAXIMUM of 5 amps. Even though I have several LGB Central Stations and several LGB Boosters it was my attempt to put decoders into an Aristo-Craft FA-1/FB-1/FB-1/FA-1 that woke me up to the fact that there is NO WAY that I could run my Aristo-Craft ABBA locos and lighted Heavyweights and Streamliners with my current MTS/DCC power supplies.
For me DCC never stood a chance in competing with the Revolution as DCC would have required me to buy an entirely new DCC power supply and Central Station. Actually I am perfectly happy with working inside the LGB MTS 5 amp limits as long as I don't get carried away and try to run non-LGB equipment with it.
If I had to define a single thing that sold me on the Revolution I think it would have to be the fact that my greatest obstacle with DCC was that the whole system was limited by the power of the Central Station. A 5 amp Central Station meant a 5 amp layout. On the other hand the Revolution was truly a revolution because now the "system" did not care what the power output is. If I wanted 10 amps I just bought a 10 amp power supply. I wanted 15 amps so I bought the Aristo/Crest Everest power supply for FAR LESS than any sort of 15 amp Central Station would have cost me. I seem to recall that the cost of some 15 amp Central Stations were running as much as 10 TIMES the cost of the Aristo Everest 15 amp power supply.
Frankly I was just plain tired of screwing with DCC and the last thing I would be interested in now is yet another DCC system no matter how many bells, whips and whistles it has. Sorry but this is just the way I feel after years of listening to unwanted and unrequested advice about DCC. I am so fed up with some individuals (I want to clearly state that this does NOT include you) trying to force feed me DCC **** that I doubt I would take it if it was free.
The simple truth is that some DCC fanatics have totally turned me off anything new that has anything to do with DCC. The key selling feature of the Revolution to me is that I have been able to figure it out for myself which means that I am pretty much independent from having to depend on anyone to help me with it beyond understanding the basics of it.
Your first comments seem to compare the Revolution with Dallee to track power or using my existing MTS/DCC controls. I presume that would mean I would have to buy some sort of decoder unless QSI is a decoder but even then I would be limited to my LGB Loco Remotes or Universal Remotes which do not have a two way communication or a graphics display. I would NOT want to do that.
Your next set of comments seem to compare the Revolution with Phoenix sound systems but I was never considering buying Phoenix sound systems. Instead I was considering using Sierra Soundtraxx sound systems which I already have. The Dallee sound systems are perfectly good enough for me and I've decided to use them rather than work out using my Sierra Soundtraxx systems.
For a truly apples to apples comparison my facts are pretty easy to define. I have, bought or am in the process of buying:
11 each Aristo-Craft diesel locomotives with the Revolution/DCC interface
11 each Dallee sound systems for these locomotives
3 each CRE57000 TRAIN ENGINEER 2.4 GHZ
2 each CRE57003 TRAIN ENG 2.4 GHZ RX (6PK)
2 each CRE57072 G SMOKE BOARD 6 PACK
11 each CRE57076 CAPACITOR BOARD FOR G
11 each ART29608 WIRES WITH PLUGS FOR SOUND INS
5 each CRE55467 15 AMP CONTROLLER
5 each CRE55468 EVEREST POWER SUPPLY
You are welcome to show a price comparison for QSI or any other 15 complete remote control systems that do not involve my purchasing anything that is not included in such systems other than my current Aristo power supplies as above.
The same is true for providing the cost of 11 of any other sound systems.
If you want to address the situation for someone who currently owns nothing but the 11 Aristo locos you are welcome to start from scratch and come up with their net cost vs the Revolution with Dallee sound systems.
Another part of the situation regarding our club is that while one member has and likes his QSI with Airwire I do not know the QSI system and as I told him I was not willing to learn it just so I can teach him how to use it or install it. I am also not willing to install the Revolution for club members in non-Aristo locos or Aristo locos that do not have the Revolution/DCC interface. I do not charge for such installations so I only do for others what I have learned to do for myself.
The quantity of locos is pretty much immaterial other than it qualifies my comments since that is what I have been working with. The cost per unit is what I am looking for so the cost for 11 can be divided by 11 to come up with the unit cost.
As I said, I began with a prejudice against DCC just as anyone who knows me realizes I have a prejudice against battery power. Our prejudices define us and I make no attempt to hide my prejudices or my favorites.
I am not against DCC or battery power for others and I have limited uses for them myself. Actually I have a lot of MTS/DCC equipment and I like it a lot. It is when it gets more complicated than LGB's MTS (such as installing and programming decoders for non-LGB locos) that I like it less and less.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 19 May 2010 03:51 PM |
|
Posted By blueregal on 19 May 2010 11:48 AM
Here Here! What Greg E. said above, I wholeheartedly agree, and have been saying that for a couple years now!! Works for me, and there is a way to have 2-3 setups to hook up to any engine and only invest in 3 decoders instead of the one in each loco. Oh Boy!! Let the beatings begin!! Hee Hee Regal
p.s. don't want to start a revolution!! Hah LOL
Unlike some topics/forums you will get no "my system is better than your system" sort of beatings from me. I've got boxes and packages of MRC decoders that cost less than $10 each and they have been good enough for many of my applications. Other times I have needed more expensive LGB and Massoth decoders which were better for their applications. Some folks use a single Revolution to power at least two locos but even then two $10 decoders are cheaper than a single Revolution receiver.
I honestly do not believe that there is a "best" system or product out there. I have found things I like and other things I dislike about every system and product I have tried.
All that is important is for us to provide accurate, detailed and complete information about the various products so that the viewers can make intelligent decisions about what is best for them.
If you are happy with what you have purchased I would be the last person to question your decision but instead I would congratulate you for finding what was right for you.
Cheers,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 19 May 2010 04:12 PM |
|
No problem Jerry, and did not mean to derail your thread.
Just wanted to point out, for people "learning" that those 2 statements are pretty much not correct.
I showed a direct price comparison per loco, that's really the bottom line once you exceed 4 to 6 locos total.... all the other stuff pales in comparison at that point.
You don't need to try to add the system costs, if you look at the big picture, and it makes the comparison easier.
I also did an apples to apples comparison. If you want to start adding the cables, it just tips the scales more in the favor of QSI.
Your individual limitations by the MTS system you own, and your limits in boosters are understood, but someone starting in the hobby would not have those limitations.
You might find that current DCC systems have the same level of complexity as the Revolution system, I've used both, and had a Revo system for one month.
The reason I mentioned your DCC system is because you already have it. The LGB version is somewhat arcane, but heck, you have it, and MTH and a Revo!
(By the way, a cost effective 15 amp booster is on the near horizon, and 10 amp ones are cheap... and you don't need to run the entire layout from one booster)
Anyway I won't further derail your thread, as I know very well and respect what it is "for". I just wanted to correct some misconceptions/errors.
Regards, Greg
|
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 19 May 2010 05:38 PM |
|
Using prices from RLD, A Dallee $82 plus a Revo receiver $75 plus the Aristo mandated cap board for track power $19 = $176
A QSI unit that has sound on par with Phoenix, 30 controllable sounds, runs on DC also = $145. , When looking at this comparison, I have one problem. If running DC the Revo/Dallee system provides remote control on DC with triggered at will horn and bell. If running the QSI on DC you do not have remote control and you do not have triggered at will horn and bell unless you add another component. With that component you have a wired system on DC. When QSI has inputs for triggered sound, I can start using it. Hope that is coming soon. |
|
|
|
|
Nicholas Savatgy
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:2835
|
| 19 May 2010 05:45 PM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 19 May 2010 05:38 PM
Using prices from RLD, A Dallee $82 plus a Revo receiver $75 plus the Aristo mandated cap board for track power $19 = $176
A QSI unit that has sound on par with Phoenix, 30 controllable sounds, runs on DC also = $145. ,
When looking at this comparison, I have one problem. If running DC the Revo/Dallee system provides remote control on DC with triggered at will horn and bell. If running the QSI on DC you do not have remote control and you do not have triggered at will horn and bell unless you add another component. With that component you have a wired system on DC.
When QSI has inputs for triggered sound, I can start using it. Hope that is coming soon. You dont need remote control to trigger the horn and bell on DC, A simple flick of the direction button on the transformer activates them so no extra $ needed................. |
|
|
|
|
Nicholas Savatgy
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:2835
|
| 19 May 2010 05:54 PM |
|
I thought this thread was a little kool aidish too Greg, I thought it started out as a help thread but it turned into a sales pitch with part #s and prices. I do wonder how much $ or free items some people are getting to say good things about the revo. Not very popular as far as i can tell and doesnt seem to be all that its said to be except to some people who post on the Aristo forum were the owner basicly has to beg to get some to buy. My opionion of course and to each there own
Quote.......
Many Revolution sets have been sold and each set has generated at least 6 spare receiver sales. More will be coming in during July, along with the new switch controller board and the "trackside" receiver. We have working samples and they have all been tested. As a matter of fact you will see them running at the SWLSTS and a sample on display at the Big Train show. The FCC/RMT has been approved and parts ordered for production.
As you can tell from the posts here this is a highly accepted and desired way to control your trains and while not your only choice on the market it's still a choice with a high degree of satisfaction and acceptance.
If you can't find one, please put in a back order with your favorite dealer and you will receive it in July |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 19 May 2010 06:27 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 19 May 2010 04:12 PM
Anyway I won't further derail your thread, as I know very well and respect what it is "for". I just wanted to correct some misconceptions/errors.
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
In many ways this thread is for me as much as it is for anyone else trying to learn about the Revolution. I have always found "book learning" to be difficult and as I get older my failing memory and eyes make learning new stuff that much harder.
Years ago I discovered that explaining what I am doing to someone else (often my wife is the unfortunate victim) forces me to clarify my thinking and in the process I often obtain a better understanding of what I am trying to do and how to best accomplish it than I did before I had to vocalize my thoughts to another.
When I was younger I was far more analytical. I wanted to know everything about everything so I could make the very best buying decisions. Now when I find something that is significantly better than what I have been doing, has a price that is reasonable in comparison to what I had been buying, is reasonably uncomplicated, and does not involve a lot of work on my part, I don't worry much about what competitive products might or might not be on the market.
One of my primary reasons for buying the Revolution is "One Stop Shopping" in that the trains are Aristo-Craft, the power supplies are Aristo-Craft and the control system (Revolution) is Aristo-Craft. This way if anything goes wrong (and I would not be telling the truth if I did not admit that things do go wrong) there is just one place to box "it" up and ship it off to be fixed without any concern for being told the problem was caused by something from another company and thus is not covered by warranty.
Regarding QSI I still do not know much about it and what I do know is somewhat confusing. As I understand it, QSI (a brand name rather than specific product numbers is one difficulty I have with it) is a sound decoder and needs other stuff to make it work. I recall that you had a topic comparing QSI to the Revolution but now I cannot find it and back when I last saw it I was not really clear on just what was involved in installing QSI both in a DCC application and in a DC application.
For reference (mine and others) would you please provide a link to that topic?
Thanks,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 19 May 2010 07:09 PM |
|
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 19 May 2010 03:51 PM
I honestly do not believe that there is a "best" system or product out there.
That is definitely true. The biggest problem I have with a system like the "Revolution" (and there are others like that mostly in Europe) is simply that is is proprietary.
That makes it a "non-starter" for me regardless of any features, capability or price.
|
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 19 May 2010 07:15 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 19 May 2010 04:12 PM
By the way, a cost effective 15 amp booster is on the near horizon......
Greg - Could you elaborate which horizon, ie manufacturer? I always wondered why I had to get the 15 Amp DCC boosters from Europe. These have been available over there from several manufacturers for at least 10 years; one manufacturer in Austria actually offers a 20 Amp DCC booster.
- Knut
|
|
|
|
|
lownote
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3142
|
| 19 May 2010 07:30 PM |
|
Regarding QSI I still do not know much about it and what I do know is somewhat confusing. As I understand it, QSI (a brand name rather than specific product numbers is one difficulty I have with it) is a sound decoder and needs other stuff to make it work. I recall that you had a topic comparing QSI to the Revolution but now I cannot find it and back when I last saw it I was not really clear on just what was involved in installing QSI both in a DCC application and in a DC application.
QSI is a sound and motor decoder in one--it's as if you took the REVO board and the Phoenix sound board and combined them into one unit.
If you run a QSI decoder under conventional DC, you get basic sounds--motor and automated whistle/bell--with remote control of the horn and bell available by flipping the direction control. The QSI board, however, does not have trigger inputs like the Phoenix board: to get the most out of it, you need to send it DCC commands. You can do this either over the rails, or over the air via the Airwire throttle or the NCE "gwire throttle."
Additionally, QSI makes an inexpensive box which lets you trigger most of the full range of sounds under conventional DC. They call it the "Quantum Engineer." It works by sending, for each sound, a pulsed series of polarity reversals |
|
Evading the Midas touch of expertise
http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/magic/westover/ |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 19 May 2010 07:32 PM |
|
Posted By Nicholas Savatgy on 19 May 2010 05:54 PM
I thought this thread was a little kool aidish too Greg, I thought it started out as a help thread but it turned into a sales pitch with part #s and prices. I do wonder how much $ or free items some people are getting to say good things about the revo. Not very popular as far as i can tell and doesnt seem to be all that its said to be except to some people who post on the Aristo forum were the owner basicly has to beg to get some to buy. My opionion of course and to each there own
Hello Nick,
It is no secret that Aristo-Craft put out a lot of pre-production Revolutions to be tested around the country. I think the number was over 100 but I do not know how many or who got them because I was not involved in that project and I never received any. I was not even aware it was going on because I had no interest in the Revolution at the time. There was possibly some sort of discounted purchase for the participants since they would be getting prototype rather than production models and may not have had all the features of the production models. I really don't know or care because they were providing Aristo-Craft and us a significant benefit by helping to develop the product.
I do know that the first production run was totally sold out almost immediately because while I was able to place one order my second order was back-ordered on just about everything for several months. There is no trick to this since Aristo continuously puts out updated in stock lists for everyone to look at and download. it would be really dumb for Aristo to list stuff as out of stock (sold) if they had it in stock and were trying to move (sell) it. The second shipment was also heavily sold and even now the current in stock list does not show a single Revolution Transmitter (CRE57001) or a single or six pack of Receivers (CRE57002 & CRE57003) in stock. The only Revolutions in stock at Aristo-Craft are the sets of transmitters and receivers (CRE57000). In other words if anyone has all the Revolution transmitters they need but they need receivers for additional locomotives, they need to find a distributor with receivers in stock because Aristo-Craft is out of them. I have no idea how many distributors do or do not have receivers in stock (not my problem).
I doubt that you realize how offensive your comments are to suggest that
"I do wonder how much $ or free items some people are getting to say good things about the revo"
How much free stuff do you think that Aristo-Craft is going to give me, a former LGB Club Forum Moderator, former owner of the LGB Family Forum and one who everyone knows owns mostly LGB trains etc.?
The answer is very simple. Every single Aristo-Craft product (just like every LGB product) I own was bought and paid for by yours truly.
Even if that were not true and Aristo-Craft was giving free stuff to people to get them to say good things about Aristo just how much value would you place on your own personal integrity? What would it cost to get you to say "nice" stuff about a product just because the manufacturer gave you some free stuff?
What would you sell your soul (your ethics - your reputation - the trust others place in what you say) for? Would a free Revolution do it? Would a free Warbonnet E-8 do it?
The truth is that no one with an ounce of intelligence would exchange good words about a product that did not deserve them for some free goodies from the manufacturer.
People are not stupid and C**p is C**p no matter who says what about it. Anyone dumb enough to praise a product that does not deserve the praise would very quickly be proven a fool when others went out to buy that product only to discover that it was a piece of c**p.
If you read my words carefully you will find that all I ever do is to report my experiences. I never make recommendations for anyone to buy anything. I realize that my singular experiences do not assure that everyone else will have identical experiences with the same product.
I go out of my way to report specific product numbers so that readers will know precisely which products I am talking about. A Revolution may be referred to as a Train Engineer but for most people a Train Engineer is not referencing a Revolution. When I say CRE57000 TRAIN ENGINEER 2.4 GHZ there will be no doubt in anyone's mind exactly which product I am talking about.
In this case your opinion seems to suggest that my opinions are influenced by something other than my honest appraisals of products I discuss. Trust me, my toy trains are insignificant compared to the value I place on my personal integrity.
I think you owe me a sincere apology.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 20 May 2010 04:38 PM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 19 May 2010 05:38 PM
Using prices from RLD, A Dallee $82 plus a Revo receiver $75 plus the Aristo mandated cap board for track power $19 = $176
A QSI unit that has sound on par with Phoenix, 30 controllable sounds, runs on DC also = $145. ,
When looking at this comparison, I have one problem. If running DC the Revo/Dallee system provides remote control on DC with triggered at will horn and bell. If running the QSI on DC you do not have remote control and you do not have triggered at will horn and bell unless you add another component. With that component you have a wired system on DC.
When QSI has inputs for triggered sound, I can start using it. Hope that is coming soon.
Ward, I was comparing cost per loco, and I was NOT saying using the Revo to control the QSI, but a real DCC track powered system (which Jerry already has).. In this comparison, you can do the bell and whistle with the Revo, you control THIRTY sounds with any DCC system and the QSI. Also, don't forget that while I'm keeping it simple on just comparing loco costs, when you get to 4-6 locos, the cost of the control system is not a factor. Just was reacting to Jerry's comments about being less expensive and easier to install.
Regards, Greg
|
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
TonyWalsham
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2172
|
| 20 May 2010 05:16 PM |
|
I would like to hear from anyone who has been able to program the REVOLUTION (either onboard or trackside) so that a QSI system RX mounted inside a loco can sit at an idle voltage (with the sound still on) when the emergency stop button has been pressed.
Can they change direction without losing that idle voltage?
Likewise, have they been able to operate the whistle/horn and bell by pressing a button(s) on the REVOLUTION Tx handpiece. |
|
Best wishes,
Tony Walsham
Remote Control Systems. www.rcs-rc.com/
Modern technology. Old Fashioned reliability |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 20 May 2010 06:06 PM |
|
Without getting into using QSI with the Revolution (I did not know it is possible) there is some information I came up with that relates to use of the Revolution with the Dallee sound system (it just might have a bearing with using it with QSI).
As I have read different documentation regarding installing the Dallee sound systems with the Revolution I noticed a few differences between some of the instructions I got elsewhere and the instructions on the Dallee web site. I phoned Dallee to confirm what I was reading.
Dallee recommends not using the Aristo-Craft SOUND PWR jack to power the sound unit but to instead make solder connections as below:
There are a few things that will work different this way. For one the power will not shut off when reversing direction and also apparently this eliminates a few other potential difficulties such as when I ran a LGB sound system and non-Revolution equipped Lionel loco (using the Revolution system as a sort of track power (to run my Rail Broom train). It turned off the Dallee sound system until I removed the LGB sound system (which I may have modified to work with DCC).
In an unrelated thought I noticed that the Dallee instructions allow for using the J5 jack for Blow Down Sounds and to turn the Sound System On and Off. I thought this would be pretty neat but there were not enough wires and connectors in the package to wire these features. Of course I could order them from Dallee but I am too cheap to do that.
Then it occurred to me that I have a bag full of Aristo single capacitors (they came with the Revolution receivers) that I replaced with capacitor six packs - AND - those single capacitors have the right connector and wires that will enable me to connect the Dallee sound system's J5 jack to the Revolution receiver and give me the Blow Down Sounds plus be able to turn the sound on and off.
Perhaps this information may help those wanting to use QSI with the Revolution. If not it should help those using the Revolution with the Dallee sound systems.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 20 May 2010 07:28 PM |
|
Sorry, I'm not trying to derail the thread. Using the QSI with the Revolution is basically, well, silly.
The QSI is "beyond" the combination of a Revo AND a Phoenix... it is not a sound card, it is a full functioning motor controller and a sound unit. In deference to Jerry, let's keep further possible configurations off this thread... my only point was the price and ease of installation comparison... and I'm now sorry I posted because it seems that those facts are lost, and they are not that important, it's more important (in my opinion) to let Jerry further investigate all the "nooks and crannies" of this particular application..
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 20 May 2010 07:51 PM |
|
Greg, Understood. I missed the point.
Nick, no payoff here. Just a happy user.
Greg again. How quick does the polarity reversal have to be for QSI to blow the horn? When using a toggle switch to reverse polarity and back, isn't there a very short period of 0 voltage? If so, how much 0 voltage can it withstand without restting?
I ask because the Revo TX can be set for direction reversal as quick as .1 seconds. I wonder if that would be fast enough for the QSI board to control the horn and bell.
Jerry, sorry for the derail. |
|
|
|
|
aceinspp
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:5191
|
| 20 May 2010 08:15 PM |
|
I'll agree that he does. Later RJD |
|
| RJD Chief Engr D & S RR SA# 2510 and the 200th member |
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 20 May 2010 08:59 PM |
|
To do bell, you do quick reversal, i.e. reverse and back... about 1/2 sec. To start whistle, you just reverse direction... the loco keeps going same direction, since it is microprocessor controlled... to stop whistle, reverse again... Sure there is a short period of 0 voltage... how long w/o reset? probably not very long, got to be around 1/10th of a second or less. I was not aware you could get the reversal time down to 1/10 second on the Revo, thought it was a lot longer. I don't think it will be quick enough, but heck try it.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 21 May 2010 07:46 AM |
|
Earlier I brought up something I quite frankly do not quite (yet) understand which is using the Dallee rather than the Aristo-Craft instructions on how to install the Dallee sound systems in a Revolution equipped locomotive.
As I look over the differences between the instructions they really are quite different and I can see how someone might get confused and possibly wire something incorrectly perhaps with a possibility of causing damage to something.
I want to clarify that as yet I have not installed a Dallee sound system as per the Dallee instructions. I do intend to make my further installations by following them but everyone should understand that I in no way am speaking for either Aristo-Craft or for Dallee and I am not saying one way is bad and the other is good.
So far I have followed the Aristo-Craft instructions and everything works exactly as they say it should but now having learned the Aristo way it is a bit difficult for me to switch my thinking to understanding the Dallee way since the usages of J1, J2 and J3 vary considerably. Apparently following the Dallee instructions there will be a spare set of connector and wires because the Dallee instructions do not use the J2 jack. That means those wires can be used for the J5 Blow Down and On Off.
If you purchased the "Auto-Horn" or "Auto-Whistle" type sound units, you will not have enough 2 pin connectors to utilize both J2 and J5. Normally this is not a problem since J2 is normally not connected. Extra wire harnesses can be purchased if needed.
For anyone confused by the above my recommendation is to pick one (Aristo or Dallee instructions) and totally ignore the other. In the end your installation should work but the Dallee instructions seem to offer an improvement (to me anyway).
I also want to mention a difference between Aristo-Craft/Dallee sound systems and Dallee sound systems bought from other than Aristo-Craft dealers - the operation of the horn is VERY different.
With a Dallee sound system that has an Aristo-Craft product number the horn button will trigger a RANDOM series of horn blasts. Each push of the button will result in a totally different horn sequence. On the other hand the Dallee sound systems with Dallee part numbers apparently blow one time for each press of the horn button.
Quite frankly when I first realized this (before I had purchased any Dallee sound systems) I did not like the idea of it. Eventually I talked myself into trying a few of the Aristo/Dallee sound systems and it surprised me to discover that I actually like it. Somehow it seems more interesting to have the loco blow an unpredictable sequence of horn blasts rather than the regimented way most brands of sound system horns work.
Regarding the Dallee sound quality I will admit that at first I was not impressed very much. I bought them because they were a lot cheaper than other Revolution compatible sound systems and the standing sounds were (to me) not very impressive. The more I ran them the more I liked them. The bell and horn sound very clear to my ears. I am becoming accustomed to and finding that I like the running (moving) sounds . Even the standing sounds are OK to me now.
I think a lot of it has to do with what we program ourselves to expect. When we know we are buying an inexpensive sound system perhaps we expect to be disappointed and then when we first install it, in the quiet of our home, we may not be overly impressed but when we get outside and start running the train/sound system the whole thing becomes an entity of its own.
One word of caution here is to be aware that the Dallee sound volume may not be turned all the way up when you take the unit out of the box. I was disappointed with the GP-40 sound until I found that I had not turned the volume on full. I think the instructions are a bit unclear about how to do this in that they show where the volume control is but I did not see any mention of which way to turn it. Turning it clockwise when looking at the front (black round dial side) will turn the volume up.
Additionally the other control (speed set) may need to be tuned to get the diesel ramp up and down sound sequencing the way you want. So far I have not bothered with this but I know that I will need to come back and do something with it. First I want some experience to learn what to expect "as is" so I have a better appreciation of what I want it to be. For someone who wants to save time I would suggest using the MU connector to power the loco, Revolution and Dallee sound system while it is disassembled which should enable one to tune things up before putting everything together.
Now that I have installed a quantity of the Dallee sound systems (all with the auto-horn) I freely admit that I like them. I won't pretend to myself or to anyone else that they are as good as Phoenix, Sierra, QSI, or LGB but I know I have at least one free Aristo-Craft SD-45 because of the money I saved by buying the Dallee sound systems.
That makes me very happy.
When it comes to sound systems I firmly believe that no one can fairly evaluate a sound system for someone else. I really believe it is important to actually hear a sound system before you buy it. I have had sound systems I hated only to be complimented by others (including some who bought them from me) about how much they liked the sounds I hated. Sometimes I have preferred the sound of a less expensive system and other times I have been willing to pay a premium price for a sound system I really liked and wanted for a specific loco. This has nothing to do with the honesty of the evaluator - it has everything to do with the sound preferences of the buyer.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Nicholas Savatgy
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:2835
|
| 21 May 2010 08:12 AM |
|
Nice to see this thread back on track again. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 21 May 2010 12:02 PM |
|
This is an application I thought of but did not know if it would work:
I decided to build a "Rail Broom Train" to clean the rails of any leaves, twigs etc. before running other trains.
Since this would be the first train to run and there would always be the possibility that it might run into something bigger than it could handle I did not want to run anything expensive. I also did not want to spend the money to buy (or the time to install) a Revolution receiver to power a loco that would only run around the layout a couple of times and then be parked.
For the Rail Broom car I chose a used LGB gondola that I had purchased cheap at a train show. I could never use it on my layouts because the former owner had installed body mounted Kadee couplers and threw away the LGB trucks that could have held conventional couplers using instead trucks without any tongue.
I found some old LGB trucks with coupler mounts (from I don't know what or where), put some heavy metal wheels on them and screwed them to the gondola. Next I mounted the Rail Broom (track sweeper) to the front of the gondola. I did not want to buy an expensive battery but I have some 14.4 volt Ni-Cad batteries from used Shark hand vacuum cleaners that I occasionally use to power a battery car. The voltage was too high so I used a MRC AT880 UNIVERSAL VOLTAGE REDUCER (diodes) which dropped the voltage to 11 volts DC.
Next came a loco. I chose a Lionel Rail Cam 0-4-0T that the camera never worked well on anyway (read cheap). I had installed a LGB smoke unit and LGB headlight in it since it came with neither a smoke unit or light. Since an 0-4-0 has terrible track contact I had MUed it to a little LGB flat car on which I had installed metal wheels with contact brushes plus a LGB 4135S sound system covered by an Aristo FA-1 fuel tank. That gave me 8 track contacts instead of 4.
For a caboose I used an Aristo D&RGW Bobber Caboose (to match the LGB D&RGW gondola). I had put light bulbs in the caboose marker light housings and added LGB ball bearing wheels to roll better and to power the lights.
In other words it is about the most improbable train anyone is likely to come up with but it works for me.
The gondola is heavy enough to force its way through wrong way turnouts.
The loco is light enough that if something is going to get derailed it will be this cheap loco rather than an expensive one.
The sound system - well, I just gotta have a sound system.
The caboose makes it a train.
The good news is that the Lionel loco needs more voltage to move than the Aristo diesels with the Revolution and Dallee sound systems. This means that I can control the direction and speed of the Rail Broom Train with a conventional throttle WITH Aristo Diesels controlled by Revolutions - on the same tracks at the same time.
I just throttle up the power to make the Lionel 0-4-0T do what I want it to do (clean the rails) and that is enough voltage on the rails for me to simultaneously run Revolution equipped Aristo locos. In other words I am running track power and Revolution power on the same layout at the same time.
I did have a problem with the LGB sound system turning off the Dallee sound system but a phone call to Dallee assured me that if I rewire the Dallee sound unit installations as per the Dallee instructions the issue of the conflicting sound systems will be resolved.
Once again I am not recommending anything to anyone. This is what I am doing and this is for information only. I do not know if there might be some (unknown to me) danger from doing this but with my elevated layout if something ends up falling six feet or more to the ground I want it to be something that won't break the bank or upset me too much.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 21 May 2010 12:59 PM |
|
CORRECTION:
I had said "Something I discovered with the Revolution that I think is different from MTS/DCC is that it appears a Revolution receiver can only be linked to one transmitter at a time." THIS WAS TOTALLY INCORRECT!
I will leave the rest of my comments (slightly modified).
One thing I like to do is to program all of my locos on all the transmitters and when I am running mutiple locos I usually operate the loco with the lower ID number on the inside track and the one with the higher number on the outside track. I then select the appropriate loco on the transmitter I intend to use.
I have marked the transmitters with color tape - blue for the inside track and red for the outside track (matching the colors of LGB track wiring sets).
This way I will know which transmitter to use for which locos based on color of transmitter and cab number of the loco.
For an emergency stop of all trains when someone else is running my trains, all I need to do is to be near the throttle and I can slow down or shut off the entire layout in an instant.
Since I power the layout when running Revolution equipped locos with the CRE55467 15 AMP CONTROLLER and the CRE55468 EVEREST POWER SUPPLY (pretty much all the time lately) I got to wondering what my track voltage would be if I turn the throttle up all the way. Part of the reason I use the controller is because I don't want to risk burning out the 18 volt light bulbs in my older heavyweight, streamliners, locos and cabooses. The 24 volt output of the Everest power supply is more than I want to put on the rails.
Anyway, today I measured the controller output when I had a Revolution controlled train on the tracks. The output to the rails was about 20.5 volts DC. I figure this is plenty of voltage for any of the trains I have Revolutions in yet low enough to protect my 18 volt light bulbs if I forget to turn the throttle down a bit.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 21 May 2010 01:32 PM |
|
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 21 May 2010 12:59 PM
Something I discovered with the Revolution that I think is different from MTS/DCC is that it appears a Revolution receiver can only be linked to one transmitter at a time. I believe I can link multiple LGB MTS (or DCC) remotes to the same loco simultaneously.
Jerry, that is possible. You can link the same receiver with multiple transmitters.
I'll call you and get procedures to you. I don't have them in my head at the moment. It's a senior thing...   |
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
eheading
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:734
|
| 21 May 2010 01:46 PM |
|
Jerry, if you go to the main menu on each of your Revolution transmitters, scroll down to "System Configure". Click on that. Then at the bottom of the screen is a line "Multi TX". Click on that so that it shows "On". Now your transmitters will both be able to talk to any receiver. Whichever transmitter sends the last command, that has the control. If you are doing what sounds like what I do, and that is running two engines with two transmitters, there is no confusion over which transmitter is controlling which loco.
Hope this works for you. The original Beta models did not have this feature, but to the best of my knowledge all of the production transmitters did/do have this feature.
Ed |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 21 May 2010 03:00 PM |
|
Hi Ed and Stan,
Two heads (yours) are better than a third head (mine).
Between you, you have come up with the solution (or a solution that works anyway). Stan even mentioned the Revolution Manual - as if I would ever read a manual cover to cover Its sort of like a pilot's manual for an airplane. Not every pilot (if any) reads the manual from cover to cover - OK student pilots might so they can pass an examination but the rest of the pilots mainly know where to find the operating limitations and the EMERGENCY section of the manual (how to make it go and how to make it stop). 
Between Ed and Stan three things came up and I did all three (don't ask me if all were needed or not but it worked).
if you go to the main menu on each of your Revolution transmitters, scroll down to "System Configure". Click on that. Then at the bottom of the screen is a line (item 5) "Multi TX". Click on that so that it shows "On".
I did that but while it sounded right it did not fix it.
Stan mentioned going to the main menu (item 6) "Radio Configure" and matching the settings.
Both transmitters were set to Channel 16 (I believe the default) but they were set to different Group ID numbers.
After I followed Ed's advice and turned Multi TX On and Stan's advice and matched the Group ID numbers both transmitters started working on the same locos at the same time. I do not think I will even have to relink all the locos if they had been previously linked.
One caution that I think needs to be mentioned is that if both transmitters have a throttle speed set, either transmitter can lower the loco speed to zero BUT if you then start to lower the other transmitter throttle, THE LOCO WILL MOVE - probably because you are now telling the loco to pay attention to the transmitter you have just activated. For this reason be sure to press the STOP key on BOTH TRANSMITTERS whenever using multiple transmitters.
Thanks Stan and Ed,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
eheading
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:734
|
| 21 May 2010 03:23 PM |
|
Yup, Stan came through again! I forgot about having to set the radio frequencies the same too!! (duh!) Glad you got the two transmitters to work, though Jerry. You are right too, about the interaction. If you are changing designated receivers on one transmitter and pass through the one controlled by the other transmitter, I have had it occasionally take command, and my loco comes to a screeching halt. I really like the feature though, as I often do just as you talked of doing, and that is control two trains with separate transmitters, one in each hand. As a result, I do as you are doing, are are going to do, and keep each of my receivers programmed into each transmitter.
Ed |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 21 May 2010 05:18 PM |
|
Hi Ed,
I keep learning (or is it remembering?) different things. One item is the "All Stop" key which will stop all trains on a transmitter. I have not tried it to see if it works on trains controlled by a different transmitter - especially if the other transmitter is on a different channel or group but I guess that is something I will eventually get to.
One thing I like is that when questions do pop up they are usually easy to resolve looking at the graphics display and then pushing the appropriate button.
About the only issue that still frustrates me are the metallic screens of my control area (screened in porch) which block the Revolution signal from reaching various parts of the layout (I had/have the same problem with MTS/DCC). This is not a defect in the Revolution as cell phones and cordless phones have given me similar problems ever since we moved here and the first cordless and cell phones were released. Even my wireless DSL routers are unable to penetrate my steel covered shop or the caboose or the camper. I had to mount an external antenna on the camper many years ago so I could send and receive cell phone calls.
Everything works perfect once I step outside of the screened room and for that matter it works just as well on the other side of the brick and cinder block wall behind the screened porch (when I drive the trains inside).
I thought that just maybe by changing the Revolution channel I might get around this but while I did get differing results on various channels I finally ended going back to channel 16.
Perhaps we have a radio frequency genius on MLS who can tell me how I might rig a pass through device to get my Revolution signal through the metal screen.
Yeah I know I can always replace the metal screens and when I built the porch I made it specifically so that it will be pretty easy to replace the screens but that still amounts to money and work I would like to avoid.
Say "Hello" to Ron for me,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 21 May 2010 05:48 PM |
|
Jerry, I set my momentum settings at 30 to 40%. When I am using two transmitters, I usually know the approximate speed settings for each loco. The high momentum settings allow me to set the "new" transmitter to the speed setting of the previous transmitter before the loco actually responds. That keeps the loco from making sudden speed changes.
If you find away around the metal screens, be sure to post it. I started parking trains in my tunnel and found that when I am in my sun room, I lose the signal of the parked trains and can not start them moving without moving outside, closer to the layout. Outside I have do not lose the signal. |
|
|
|
|
Johnn
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:101
|
| 21 May 2010 06:35 PM |
|
Well after reading this whole topic i felt the need to make a few comments. 1st you guys make it sound so easy to install the revo and that there are no problems with it, Im here to tell you that my exsperiance with it was not so good. I bought the revo and a new Pacific to go with it but there were issues from the git go. The pacific arrived with 2 drivers loose so i had to send it in for repair 3 weeks wait time. then when i received it back i tried it out and it didnt run on track power had to send it back turns out there was a issue with the wiring, Think they would have caught that the 1st time anyways another 2 weeks i didnt have it.
then i installed the revo when i received it back and the loco didnt operate properly so i found out i needed to buy more items to make it work as advertised so i spent more and bought what i was told i needed. i then installed the extra parts and the loco just wouldnt operate properly and jerked all around the track no matter what i did so i called Aristo again and was told to send it in for repair AGAIN. i finally received loco and revo back last week and was told it was fixed and the revo needed to be reprogramed and all was fine . So 2 days later i had a chance to try it out and it acted the same way, so i decided maybe it was somethiong with my track and took it to a freinds to try it and it did the same thing. So i came home and called the dealer i bought it from and demanded a full refund which he didnd want to do but i threatened to call my Credit Card about fraud and he sent a pick up for the units and refunded my CC. Moral of my storie is dont always beleive what you read cause there are some that will tell you anything to sell something.
I too find it odd that only Aristocraft part #s are listed in this topic. I have learned a good lesson in all of this, and that is that i will never buy an Aristo product again as i beleive that their item are sub par.
Johnn |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 21 May 2010 07:44 PM |
|
Sorry to hear your experience. Now, everyone will attest that I am not a paid Aristo shill (ha ha! quite the contrary!)
So please consider what I am saying: the Revo is probably not your issue. It's basically several common things about Aristo:
1. Quite often things are "fixed" but they are not. There's lots of documentation of people sending in their loco many times and it's not fixed. This is not to say it is the norm, but it seems if it's not fixed the first time, you should probably give up. My guesses is that the repair people often don't find the problem, or if they do, their fix is no good.
2. The wiring is very strange. Quite often the battery/track switch means (in terms of track power) either pick up from the 6 driver wheels ONLY, OR pick up from 2 tender wheels ONLY. The result is poor running no matter what the switch position is. There's relatively easy fixes for this, I have detailed them on my site.
3. The repair people do NOT often test your loco in the way you are running it.
4. There are inherent design "weaknesses" in the Aristo Prime mover gearboxes that cause problems with power pickup, loose wheels, and axles pulling out of the gearboxes. Again I have detailed all of this and how to correct them on my site, search for "Prime Mover Basics".
So in deference to Jerry wanting to share his experiences and "learning path" on the Revo, I submit your problems were poor quality loco, poor repairs, and poor documentation on installations.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 21 May 2010 09:25 PM |
|
Posted By Johnn on 21 May 2010 06:35 PM
you guys make it sound so easy to install the revo and that there are no problems with it, Im here to tell you that my exsperiance with it was not so good.
i found out i needed to buy more items to make it work as advertised so i spent more and bought what i was told i needed.
I too find it odd that only Aristocraft part #s are listed in this topic. I have learned a good lesson in all of this, and that is that i will never buy an Aristo product again as i beleive that their item are sub par.
Johnn
Hi Johnn,
I understand your frustration and I am not going to try to explain or justify anything as I do not represent Aristo-Craft. Sometimes we buy a product and find out that nothing seems to go the way they should. I have run into that myself with various manufacturers (not just Aristo-Craft).
My only comments are that the Revolution really is easy to install in a loco with the interface for it. Your problems do not seem to be related to the Revolution as far as I can tell.
You also mention needing more items and the fact that Aristo-Craft parts are listed. That is why I list the Aristo part numbers - to highlight what is available so that folks will have a better understanding of what they will need. I have the reverse problem in that I bought parts (push buttons etc.) that I later found were included.
Good luck, I hope things work out for you.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 21 May 2010 09:30 PM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 21 May 2010 05:48 PM
Jerry, I set my momentum settings at 30 to 40%. When I am using two transmitters, I usually know the approximate speed settings for each loco. The high momentum settings allow me to set the "new" transmitter to the speed setting of the previous transmitter before the loco actually responds. That keeps the loco from making sudden speed changes.
If you find away around the metal screens, be sure to post it. I started parking trains in my tunnel and found that when I am in my sun room, I lose the signal of the parked trains and can not start them moving without moving outside, closer to the layout. Outside I have do not lose the signal.
Hi Ward,
That is a good idea regarding using the momentum setting. I will have to try it.
Regarding the metal screens, one thing you might try is to play with different channel settings (I don't know if group settings change anything as I did not try it).
When I tried the different channels (all of them) I found some interesting things in how the direction of transmission/reception seemed to change as I went from channel to channel. It may be that you can find a channel that will work for you.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
|
aceinspp
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:5191
|
| 22 May 2010 06:27 AM |
|
I guess he figures it's easier to just ply with the channels instead of going to the rout cause. Screen. Later RJD |
|
| RJD Chief Engr D & S RR SA# 2510 and the 200th member |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 22 May 2010 07:30 AM |
|
Posted By aceinspp on 22 May 2010 06:27 AM
I guess he figures it's easier to just ply with the channels instead of going to the rout cause. Screen. Later RJD
Yep!
Besides new screens involve trip(s) to town, figuring out which type of screens to buy, deciding what sizes (width) I need and whether the cat will rip them to shreds (climbing them). I figure new screens will probably end up costing $100+ and I can put up with a lot before parting with that much money.
Procrastination is the name of the game and I am very good at it.
Strangely the screens do not cause any problems with my old Train Engineers which is what made me think a different frequency might have made the problem go away.
When I put in the screens originally I found it important to choose the right type because some are much easier to see through while others (especially silver ones) can really hamper vision when the sun is shining on them. An opposite situation exists in that I want the screens to be easy for me to see out of but not so clear that my presence might be too visible to deer etc. and keep them away when I may want to be inside watching them.
Screens can be a complicated issue.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
lownote
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3142
|
| 22 May 2010 07:41 AM |
|
Posted By Johnn on 21 May 2010 06:35 PM
I too find it odd that only Aristocraft part #s are listed in this topic. I have learned a good lesson in all of this, and that is that i will never buy an Aristo product again as i beleive that their item are sub par.
Johnn
What Greg said--I've had both good and very bad luck with aristo, the quality control is very spotty. When they do work as advertised--which they sometimes do--it's a dream. You will find that ALL the large scale manufacturers have quality control problems
There are a bunch of puzzling things about the large scale market. The Pacific was the most common steam era passenger loco in America. The mikado was the most common freight loco. Aristo is the only company making either. But there are three LS manufacturers making nearly identical 40 foot steel boxcars. I don't get it. Aristo and USAT come very close to duplicating each other with their diesels--check it out. Both in terms of price and in terms of prototype they are very close.
But not in steam. The USAT Hudson is a fantastic model, but it's
priced 4 or 5 five times higher than Aristo's Pacific, so they aren't
really competing. Nobody else makes a Mikado. It seems to me that if USAT were to make a plastic Pacific or Mikado they'd eat Aristo's lunch. I have to wonder if the two companies have a gentleman's agreement of some kind
|
|
Evading the Midas touch of expertise
http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/magic/westover/ |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 22 May 2010 08:44 AM |
|
Posted By Johnn on 21 May 2010 06:35 PM
there was a issue with the wiring
Moral of my storie is dont always beleive what you read cause there are some that will tell you anything to sell something.
Johnn
Hi Johnn,
In re-reading your post I think this comment should be addressed.
No one here is trying to sell you or anyone else anything.
Your problems (and I do not mean to belittle them) appear to have had nothing to do with the Revolution. It appears that all of your problems had to do with a Pacific locomotive. I don't think a single reference has been made on this topic about any Pacifics. I have no personal opinion about current production Pacifics. I don't own one and I don't have any personal knowledge or experience with them so I am not in any sort of position to suggest whether your situation is unique or not (besides I am sure at this point you are not interested in other people's experiences with them good or bad).
This topic has been focused on the Revolution. No one has attempted to sugar coat anything. You mentioned having a problem with wiring. Wiring problems related to the Revolution/DCC interface have been mentioned right here in this topic (and discussed on Greg's web site). I know of one fellow locally who had an FA-1 that was mis-wired at the factory and it blew the new Revolution receiver he had been installing in it. He sent the loco to Aristo-Craft where they fixed the wiring problem, installed a new Revolution receiver and returned the FA-1 to him at no charge - and this was on an FA-1 he had bought used. This was a guy who is not on the Internet and does not have a layout and has never had any sort of previous contact with Aristo-Craft (he was not given any sort of special treatment because of who he might have known).
Between myself and a few local club members we have purchased, installed and are using 5 Revolution transmitters and at least 15 Revolution receivers. Out of these there have been one transmitter and one receiver (both unfortunately mine) that proved defective and are at Aristo-Craft for repair or replacement. I have had a similar failure rate with electronics from other toy train manufacturers. In the past couple of years I bought eleven Aristo diesel locomotives. I had issues with some (actually most) of them but thanks to Greg and others I found that my problems (weight and electrical contact) were well known and documented and I was able to fix them myself with little difficulty.
I don't know what you read or what you were told that convinced you to buy a Pacific and a Revolution and you have every right not to buy something else from Aristo-Craft but as time goes by you might be amazed as you discover how many people have Aristo-Craft Pacifics with or without Revolutions and are quite happy with them. Perhaps the real question is how much you want a Pacific (or other large steam locomotive) because there just are not that many choices out there. I like the LGB Mikado but their drive system problems were well documented and they are now out of production and LGB went bankrupt.
I guess what I am saying is that just because people may be discussing a product and not talking about problems they may have run across with it on one topic does not mean that they had not discussed difficulties they may have had with that product or with other products on another forum or topic.
To be brutally frank most people post things about themselves and about products they like. Rather than trying to sell you or anyone else on the products they may be talking about they are kind of saying "Hey! This is what I am doing and this is what I like about it." For me personally I am a retired salesman and after spending almost all of my working life selling products I was hired (paid) to sell I am now totally devoid of any desire to sell anything to anyone. I can talk enthusiastically about the Aristo Revolution or a LGB Mogul or a MTH Big Boy or a USAT GP-7 (Aristo does not make a MoPac loco ; )). If I owned one I would be just as enthusiastic about an Aster Big Boy and probably QSI (my older MTH locos have the QSI/Protosound 1 system). Is it important to me for someone to rush out and buy what I like? Not at all. Everyone should rush out and buy whatever appeals to them - not what appeals to me.
Cheers,
Jerry
PS Yes there are some people here on MLS who are dealers for some products and/or offer installation or customizing services for a fee (this does not include me - I don't sell any products or services) but I don't think that is what you are talking about. |
|
|
|
|
blueregal
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:1884
|
| 22 May 2010 09:32 AM |
|
Jerry, again not arguing with this or that system, it seems that the Revolution has worked for you. Only thing I want to address, is that the majority of questions on here, and other forums about problems either self caused or inherit in the system, tweaking about the Revolution, and others, in wiring or how to's has been addressed pretty much to the revolution and or phoenix wiring, and such. My dog in the fight here is ONLY if you are looking for a most cost effective, and easy to install system, especially in Aristo engines, the QSI/G-wire is the system to go with if you are like ME, challenged by electricity, and or wiring and electronics. I admit I am all of those. This is the reason I went with the QSI/G-wire sytem 2 years ago. I learn as I go, and with the expert helping hands of Greg E. and Noel out in California, and J.C. in Kansas, and Bob Grosh in Florida,I have learned alot along the way about electronics, and soldering (Hah LOL) private joke!! Others have tried to instruct me with no success, and hats off to Greg E. and Noel, and J.C. and Bob Grosh, in Florida the founder of our train group, for being able to simplify things for me. I'm a whole lot farther than I was 2 years ago. My first installation was "scary" to say the least but only took me about an hour, since then its about 45 mins or less and I am up running superbly, with 32 functions, and I can run track power, and or battery power. I was able to do my FIRST installation on my own with NO help, After my last learning session with Greg E. I was able to successfully install a whole wiring setup QSI/G-wire, adapter board, charging jack noise suppression, fully fused system with a custom sound system from 1-1scale sound in Oregon in my USA Pa/Pb, U.P. passenger train setup!! I have 6 engines set up with QSI/G-wire as we speak, but the cost effectiveness comes a bit too late for me. You really only need to set yourself up 2-3 boxcars,properly MU'd, with battery, and or 1 pass setup, depending on what you want to run. By purchasing the $75 programmer you can program a boxcar the night before with what you want to run the next day. So for the majority of us you only need 3 QSI/G-wire setups at $215 give or take a few dollars to be all set up!! You can program each boxcar for steam, diesel, and or whatever! No need to install in each engine like I have over 6 of em!! The first install is of course right at $400 as you have to purchase a t-9000 throttle and or procab to run the systems!! I have both and the procab is easier and less money too!! Other than a few self imposed, or caused by me problems they run flawlessly, and fit the bill for me!! So if you like easey peasey, cost effectiveness, and ease of installation, and or operation the QSI/G-wire is the ONE for Me!! Especially if you are electronically, and or wiring challenged like me. So there is my 3 cents on the issue!! And like you said you have to do what you LIKE, "It's your railroad, you run it like YOU want to". For those of you out there who are just looking around and haven't decided yet which way to go, you can look at all my sites listed below to see the system working and or hear it, and there are 3-4 installations there also!! I am happy to help anyone who contacts me for such help, as like I have said above i've had 4 people graciously help me in my endeavors, and that's my way of giving back!! So take a look and decide for yourselfs!! Nobody's right or wrong in this hobby, its all about what works for you and your capabilities, and your pocketbooks.!! Regal
|
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 22 May 2010 10:02 AM |
|
Nobody's right or wrong in this hobby, its all about what works for you and your capabilities, and your pocketbooks.!! Regal Regal, I agree 100%. I happen to have the Pacific with Revolution and it is a great runner. (hope I did not just jinx it). I had to do the wiring fix in the tender and the track/battery switch needs to be set so power is picked up from both the loco and tender. In one position it picks up power from only one end. Don't remember which one right now, would have to check it. I also added more power pickup points in the tender using a trick from RJ where you electical eyelets on the axel bushings. I gotta say that the Pacific gave me the most headaches and required the most wiring work to get it to run well. I would not recomend it to someone as a first loco or someone that can not trace out and correct wiring issues. Jerry, good explanation on the thread topic. We keep derailing and you keep getting it back on track. Overall a very informative thread. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 22 May 2010 11:07 AM |
|
Posted By blueregal on 22 May 2010 09:32 AM
And like you said you have to do what you LIKE, "It's your railroad, you run it like YOU want to".
Nobody's right or wrong in this hobby, its all about what works for you and your capabilities, and your pocketbooks.!! Regal
Hi Regal,
I could not agree more.
Many times it is not what is "best" but often it is what happens to have the best "support team" available to the buyer.
I have no dog in this hunt. There are very few layouts I have visited that I did not come away thinking that if I had to build what I had just seen I would have made the same choices as the guy who built it.
It is my nature to be anti-authority and the moment someone tries to push me in one direction the harder I start looking in the opposite direction.
The best words I have ever heard regarding this hobby (and I heard them many years ago when I got into the hobby) are just as you said:
"It's your railroad, you run it like YOU want to".
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 22 May 2010 04:22 PM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 22 May 2010 10:02 AM
Jerry, good explanation on the thread topic. We keep derailing and you keep getting it back on track. Overall a very informative thread.
Hi Ward,
As a retired salesman I find topic derailing (intentional or accidental) to be rather humorous.
The one thing that will kill both a sale and a topic is...
Every topic eventually dies a natural death but this topic has been rejuvenated time after time by someone who has either questioned the Revolution or promoted a different product.
With the title of "My Introduction to The Aristo-Craft Revolution" few folks are going to come here to learn about competitive products (they would instead look for a topic with the name of that competitive product - I know I would).
Rather than successfully promoting a different product what happens when someone derails this topic by saying anything about another product what they have really succeeded in doing is to instantly push this topic right back to the very top of the ACTIVE TOPICS list (I suspect this is the very last thing they would want to be doing).
The result is that this topic has now been commented on 231 times and viewed 13,151 times. This is far more attention than I ever expected it to receive. Perhaps we should give everyone who has said anything in favor of other products a round of applause because this topic would not have been as highly viewed as it has - without their assistance.   
The one thing I seriously wish to thank everyone for is that all comments have been sincere even if they were not complimentary (this is OK). As long as folks are courteous and respectful everyone's opinions are welcome - but they really should relate to the topic title out of respect for those who come here looking for information about the Revolution.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 23 May 2010 08:26 AM |
|
The comment about installing a Revolution in a Pacific brings up some things I think are worth mentioning.
I have only installed the Revolution in four types of locomotives (all Aristo-Craft). They are the GP-40, SD-45, Dash-9 and E-8. All had the Revolution/DCC interface and all were diesels. All were pretty easy for me to install. The only sound systems I have installed with the Revolution have been Dallee units.
Three things are significant about this:
1. I have never installed a Revolution in a locomotive without the Revolution/DCC interface
2. I have never installed a Revolution in a steam locomotive (Aristo-Craft or any other brand).
3. I have never installed a sound system with a Revolution other than Dallee which have ready made instructions for installing them.
I know that others (including Stan Cedarleaf) have installed Revolution receivers in locos without the Revolution/DCC interface and in steam locos plus Stan has MUed multiple locos to single Revolution receivers. Stan has also installed sound systems other than Dallee in Revolutions. While I am mentioning Stan because I am aware of some of the things he has done and his assistance made my installations easier, anyone else is equally invited to comment.
At one point I had intended to install Revolution receivers in both non-Aristo-Craft steam locos and in Aristo-Craft locos (FA-1/FB-1s) and even MUing them together. Eventually I decided not to do it for a variety of reasons - many of the same reasons that caused me to decide not to put MTS/DCC decoders into those same locos in the past.
Sometimes I just decide that the cost and effort of installing a Revolution receiver or a decoder is greater than the value (to me) I will gain from the installation. After all if I have been happy running those locomotives for many years under track power there is no magic reason for having to put a Revolution or decoder into everything now.
To a large extent my appreciation for the Revolution goes hand in hand with and is related to my appreciation for the current generation of Aristo-Craft locos that have made it so easy to put a Revolution receiver into them AND so easy to connect a trailing battery car and give me dual track and battery power capabilities.
Part of the issue for me is just how important a full installation is? Do I really need and want the Revolution or decoder to control my cab lights, smoke unit, bell and whistle etc. or am I going to be satisfied with just making it go and stop? Often the answer (my answer - not to be confused with YOUR answer) has been that go and stop is all I would be concerned with - especially when an older sound system already installed is involved. Then I usually come to the conclusion (for me again) that just for stop and go operations and with older sound systems I will (for now anyway) just stay with track power on those older locos and sound systems.
While this topic is/has been addressed to my Revolution experiences I think it would be unfair and unreasonable not to invite others to discuss their installations and usages of Revolutions in locomotives especially those I either do not have or have not installed any Revolutions in. This would include sound systems others have installed with Revolutions that I have not.
If folks are going to come here for information about Revolution experiences it might as well and should include everyone who has installed and is using Revolutions and wishes to contribute their experiences to the discussion.
When I have said that my Revolution installations have been easy I should have added that part of the reason for this is that I have only chosen to install Revolutions where the installation was going to be easy. I have avoided complicated installations. As the level of installation complexity increases folks should start asking themselves if they have the knowledge, skill and experience to do it themselves or if it might be better to pay someone else to do it for them (please do not ask me as I am years behind my own projects).
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 23 May 2010 10:23 AM |
|
Installing in a steamer will present more wiring work when the steamer has the socket in the boiler, since 1. you may not have room in the boiler for your sound card too, and 2. because if you locate the sound card in the tender, you have to run all the trigger wires back there.
Future versions of steamers are supposed to have the socket in the tender, and a few do already.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 23 May 2010 11:26 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 23 May 2010 10:23 AM
Installing in a steamer will present more wiring work when the steamer has the socket in the boiler, since 1. you may not have room in the boiler for your sound card too, and 2. because if you locate the sound card in the tender, you have to run all the trigger wires back there.
Future versions of steamers are supposed to have the socket in the tender, and a few do already.
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
Those are good points for both the Revolution and MTS/DCC (even with a sound decoder). I have a couple of LGB Forneys, a Mogul and a 2-4-0 that have been in pieces for many months waiting for me to get back to installing decoders and sound systems in them. When the newness of the Revolution wears off I will probably get back to them.
A major reason for me ordering the future Aristo Consolidations is because I expect them to have a Revolution/DCC interface in the tender. I think those Consolidations should prove great both for switching and for pulling trains.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 23 May 2010 01:22 PM |
|
Greg's comments tripped something in my memory. I didn't use the PNP plug in the boiler. I put the RX in the tender and used the stock connector plugs to bring track power into the tender and motor power from the tender to the loco's circuit board. That allowed much easier connection of the sound triggers to the Phoenix sound card. Worked well but it was a bit of work. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 23 May 2010 05:52 PM |
|
Today the thermometer hit 95 degrees. It is not a lot of fun for me to run trains even in the shade with a fan and a cool drink when the temperature gets this high.
Two things came to mind today. The first is that if I was not able to bring the two freight trains up the ramp and into the crawl space with a single movement of each train I don't think I would want to do it on days like today. As it is I was able to back one train of 12 reefers up the ramp to the yard and with the other train (both with SD-45s) I ran the loco around to the caboose. The loco pulled the train forward out of the yard to run it and then I used it in reverse to pull the train backward from the caboose end up the ramp and into the crawl space.
Once in the crawl space it is a lot cooler and I pulled the cars off the track and put them on tracks on shelves to park them.
The other thing today was my use of rechargeable AA batteries. If one pushes a lot of Revolution buttons and the back-light keeps being turned on the batteries will need to be replaced every few days. This is not a major issue but I did try some old rechargeable NiMH AA batteries and they seem to work very well.
Here it is very nice to have the Revolution display constantly show the battery voltage so it is easy to tell when the batteries are getting weak and should be replaced. One charger I have will recharge four AA NiMH batteries in 15 minutes so having a ready supply of batteries should never be a problem. Some electronic products do not like rechargeable batteries because they put out slightly lower voltage but the Revolution transmitter does not seem to care.
I have Aristo Revolution chargers and batteries on order but no idea when they will become available. Many of us probably already have some sort of rechargeable AA batteries around the house that can be used.
I used the Rail Broom train again today and I was glad I did because my wife had left an electrical cord across the rails. It derailed the Rail Broom car but with only the Lionel 0-4-0 pushing it there was not enough traction to cause anything further to happen.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 23 May 2010 11:02 PM |
|
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 23 May 2010 05:52 PM
{snip}
I have Aristo Revolution chargers and batteries on order but no idea when they will become available. Many of us probably already have some sort of rechargeable AA batteries around the house that can be used.
{snip}
Jerry Jerry, I've found that the Kirkland AA alkalines from Costco and the Member Mark from Sam's Club work very well for me. They're quite reasonable and last for weeks with daily use. And, yes, the REVOLUTION transmitter is quite OK with rechargeables as well as 1.5 alkaline. |
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 24 May 2010 06:23 AM |
|
Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 23 May 2010 11:02 PM
Jerry, I've found that the Kirkland AA alkalines from Costco and the Member Mark from Sam's Club work very well for me. They're quite reasonable and last for weeks with daily use. And, yes, the REVOLUTION transmitter is quite OK with rechargeables as well as 1.5 alkaline.
Hi Stan,
I had said "the batteries will need to be replaced every few days." This was incorrect. It may seem like every few days but as you said new alkaline batteries can last for weeks with daily use.
It seems that there are AA batteries all around the house, shop etc, with varying degrees of remaining charge. I have some battery testers and my goal is to work my way through all these batteries to gradually use them all up and throw them away. Since I have had so many things ruined by corroded batteries over the years I now try to make some sort of effort to pull batteries out of remotes when the remote is used infrequently. There are so many remotes to so many things I don't have a clue as to when I last put new batteries in them. It is a real relief to me when I find something like the Revolution that actually gives me an indication of the condition of the batteries in it.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
|
eheading
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:734
|
| 24 May 2010 08:46 AM |
|
Jerry, my experience is pretty much the same as Stan's regarding how long the batteries last. I run exclusively fresh alkalines in my Revolution transmitters and find they typically last me better than 2 months. When I run my trains too, I "operate" them, so I am doing a lot of speed changing, reversing, etc. This means the backlight is on most of the time when I'm operating, and normally I run just about every day for at least 1-2 hours.
Ed |
|
|
|
|
aceinspp
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:5191
|
| 24 May 2010 05:27 PM |
|
By now Ed is having train running withdrawal  Later RJD |
|
| RJD Chief Engr D & S RR SA# 2510 and the 200th member |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 24 May 2010 06:02 PM |
|
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 29 Sep 2009 09:39 AM
OK. I bit the bullet and after telling myself for a year or so that I did not want or need the Revolution I changed my mind and bought it. Actually I bought 3 Revolutions along with the "stuff" to put receivers into 10 locomotives.
First let me say that this topic is only intended to reflect my personal experiences with the Aristo-Craft Revolution and IS NOT intended to be any sort of nuts and bolts comparison with any other operating system other than what is coincidental to those systems to the limited extent that I use them on my layouts.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am primarily an analog track powered guy and that is unlikely to change.
I also have locomotives that I run on LGB's MTS (DCC); MTH's DCS and to a lesser extent battery power and live steam. I do not profess to be an expert on any of them or on anything. I also have NO PLANS to convert from anything to anything but to simply add the Revolution to the current systems that I already operate.
If anything this might be considered "The Dummies Guide to The Aristo-Craft Revolution."
So what then made me decide to buy the Revolution?
1. Simply the fact that several of my locomotives already came with the Aristo-Craft plug in interface that will fit the Revolution Receiver.
2. Also the fact that those same locomotives already came with the Aristo-Craft switch to go from track to battery power and I was considering going to Marty's but had nothing prepared to run on battery.
3. Being basically thrifty (cheap) I had figured out how to use a surplus floor sweeper 14.4 volt battery to work with an Aristo Train Engineer Receiver mounted in a boxcar but that turned out to be somewhat bulky and heavy and then I found some surplus (cheap) hand vacuum cleaners with 14.4 volt Ni-Cad batteries that were plentiful and even cheaper ($10). I thought I might need a battery powered locomotive to clean my seldom cleaned brass track.
4. I liked the idea of Aristo's capacitor pack to keep the loco running over dirty track.
5. I liked the idea of using a receiver rather than a decoder because it freed me from LGB's MTS 5 amp limit (yes I know there are MTS and DCC alternatives). The receiver meant in effect no limit on the track power amperage and I had found my Aristo F1 ABBA's to be power hogs especially if I ran a pair of them.
6. Since I like lighted passenger cars the amps ran up when I ran a F1 ABBA pulling 11 Aristo Streamliners which is not a problem with a 15 amp power supply and throttle that I already had (I need the throttle to bring the track voltage down to 18 volts to assure long life of my passenger car light bulbs).
7. I like the Revolution's bi-directional communication with the receiver which tells me if the transmitter is still talking with the receiver.
As I said, I do not consider this to be a comparison of apples and oranges. In my mind the Revolution is simply a totally different concept in that the transmitter is talking to a receiver rather than to a decoder which makes it independent from a track signal such as MTS/DCC or DCS.
I fully intend to keep and continue to use track power, MTS/DCC and DCS. I consider all of them to be oranges, apples and peaches (no lemons) with each having unique features that I would not choose one above all the others.
My first experience with the Revolution (which arrived just one day before heading to Marty's) was that I like it. I put it into three locomotives (2 E8s and a GP40) and ran the E8s with one pulling 6 streamliners and the other pulling 12 boxcars and a caboose). While running them for several hours I lost control once (must have pushed the wrong button) which would make me hesitant to hand one over to a visitor to control my trains without some detailed instructions. I also had the receiver shut off (to save the batteries) which has also happened with my MTS and DCS remotes. These may be programming options but this was my first couple of hours experience with a very rushed run through the instructions.
When I got to Marty's I realized that everything had Kadee couplers and I did not so I did not actually run my locos but had more than enough running time with Bubba's, Marty's and Eric's stuff.
Over the next few weeks I will spend more time with the Revolution and report my results here.
One reason I am writing this is that several friends at Marty's mentioned that they had either just bought Revolutions or were going to so perhaps this topic may help them and others.
I would really appreciate it if folks who do not have or intend to buy the Revolution would NOT jump in with comparisons with competitive systems as there are more than enough topics on just about every other system out there.
By the same token I would appreciate it if folks WHO DO OWN Revolutions would contribute their knowledge to this topic.
I AM NOT trying to sell the Revolution. I already made my decision to buy it and I DO NOT have any desire to be told that I made a mistake in how I spent MY money. I just want to learn more about it and to share with others how to get the most out of the Revolution.
There is no objection to anyone who bought a Revolution from mentioning things they may have found to be difficult but for those who have no desire to buy a Revolution please do not rain on this parade. This is a show and tell and not a "My Mustang's better than your Camero" type of discussion.
Thanks,
Jerry
I received this from Lewis:
Dear Jerry,
I've been following your thread it seems for months.
By the way, the Revolution is a wild success and we're selling thousands.
All the best,
Lewis
That got me to wondering just how long this topic has been running.
Would you believe it has now been almost 8 months?
I am still finding new and interesting things about the Revolution and 8 months later I am still finding it exciting. I had no idea those 2 E8s and a GP40 were just the beginning.
Lewis was right - it has been months.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
nkelsey
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:495
|
| 24 May 2010 06:26 PM |
|
The revolution Tx has a plug for recharging, has anyone seen or found a charger to fit this? |
|
| Nick, The
Worthington and Randolph RR and
Moore Logging Company,
Canby, Oregon |
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 24 May 2010 09:46 PM |
|
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 24 May 2010 06:02 PM
Posted By Jerry McColgan on 29 Sep 2009 09:39 AM
OK. I bit the bullet and after telling myself for a year or so that I did not want or need the Revolution I changed my mind and bought it. Actually I bought 3 Revolutions along with the "stuff" to put receivers into 10 locomotives.
First let me say that this topic is only intended to reflect my personal experiences with the Aristo-Craft Revolution and IS NOT intended to be any sort of nuts and bolts comparison with any other operating system other than what is coincidental to those systems to the limited extent that I use them on my layouts.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am primarily an analog track powered guy and that is unlikely to change.
I also have locomotives that I run on LGB's MTS (DCC); MTH's DCS and to a lesser extent battery power and live steam. I do not profess to be an expert on any of them or on anything. I also have NO PLANS to convert from anything to anything but to simply add the Revolution to the current systems that I already operate.
If anything this might be considered "The Dummies Guide to The Aristo-Craft Revolution."
So what then made me decide to buy the Revolution?
1. Simply the fact that several of my locomotives already came with the Aristo-Craft plug in interface that will fit the Revolution Receiver.
2. Also the fact that those same locomotives already came with the Aristo-Craft switch to go from track to battery power and I was considering going to Marty's but had nothing prepared to run on battery.
3. Being basically thrifty (cheap) I had figured out how to use a surplus floor sweeper 14.4 volt battery to work with an Aristo Train Engineer Receiver mounted in a boxcar but that turned out to be somewhat bulky and heavy and then I found some surplus (cheap) hand vacuum cleaners with 14.4 volt Ni-Cad batteries that were plentiful and even cheaper ($10). I thought I might need a battery powered locomotive to clean my seldom cleaned brass track.
4. I liked the idea of Aristo's capacitor pack to keep the loco running over dirty track.
5. I liked the idea of using a receiver rather than a decoder because it freed me from LGB's MTS 5 amp limit (yes I know there are MTS and DCC alternatives). The receiver meant in effect no limit on the track power amperage and I had found my Aristo F1 ABBA's to be power hogs especially if I ran a pair of them.
6. Since I like lighted passenger cars the amps ran up when I ran a F1 ABBA pulling 11 Aristo Streamliners which is not a problem with a 15 amp power supply and throttle that I already had (I need the throttle to bring the track voltage down to 18 volts to assure long life of my passenger car light bulbs).
7. I like the Revolution's bi-directional communication with the receiver which tells me if the transmitter is still talking with the receiver.
As I said, I do not consider this to be a comparison of apples and oranges. In my mind the Revolution is simply a totally different concept in that the transmitter is talking to a receiver rather than to a decoder which makes it independent from a track signal such as MTS/DCC or DCS.
I fully intend to keep and continue to use track power, MTS/DCC and DCS. I consider all of them to be oranges, apples and peaches (no lemons) with each having unique features that I would not choose one above all the others.
My first experience with the Revolution (which arrived just one day before heading to Marty's) was that I like it. I put it into three locomotives (2 E8s and a GP40) and ran the E8s with one pulling 6 streamliners and the other pulling 12 boxcars and a caboose). While running them for several hours I lost control once (must have pushed the wrong button) which would make me hesitant to hand one over to a visitor to control my trains without some detailed instructions. I also had the receiver shut off (to save the batteries) which has also happened with my MTS and DCS remotes. These may be programming options but this was my first couple of hours experience with a very rushed run through the instructions.
When I got to Marty's I realized that everything had Kadee couplers and I did not so I did not actually run my locos but had more than enough running time with Bubba's, Marty's and Eric's stuff.
Over the next few weeks I will spend more time with the Revolution and report my results here.
One reason I am writing this is that several friends at Marty's mentioned that they had either just bought Revolutions or were going to so perhaps this topic may help them and others.
I would really appreciate it if folks who do not have or intend to buy the Revolution would NOT jump in with comparisons with competitive systems as there are more than enough topics on just about every other system out there.
By the same token I would appreciate it if folks WHO DO OWN Revolutions would contribute their knowledge to this topic.
I AM NOT trying to sell the Revolution. I already made my decision to buy it and I DO NOT have any desire to be told that I made a mistake in how I spent MY money. I just want to learn more about it and to share with others how to get the most out of the Revolution.
There is no objection to anyone who bought a Revolution from mentioning things they may have found to be difficult but for those who have no desire to buy a Revolution please do not rain on this parade. This is a show and tell and not a "My Mustang's better than your Camero" type of discussion.
Thanks,
Jerry
I received this from Lewis:
Dear Jerry,
I've been following your thread it seems for months.
By the way, the Revolution is a wild success and we're selling thousands.
All the best,
Lewis
That got me to wondering just how long this topic has been running.
Would you believe it has now been almost 8 months?
I am still finding new and interesting things about the Revolution and 8 months later I am still finding it exciting. I had no idea those 2 E8s and a GP40 were just the beginning.
Lewis was right - it has been months.
Jerry
Looks like you made Lewis Happy. Maybe even happier quoting you original post! Regards, Greg
|
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 25 May 2010 06:55 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 24 May 2010 09:46 PM
Looks like you made Lewis Happy. Maybe even happier quoting you original post!
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
I'm not sure what you mean.
When I became curious about how long this topic has been running, I went back to the original post and when I did (and read it) it occurred to me that someone coming in new is not very likely to go back 240+ posts to read the original one which is when I defined the purpose of the topic. That is why I reposted it.
I had guessed that Lewis and other manufacturers browse topics about their products from time to time and I believe it is good for us as consumers to know that they do read our comments even if they no longer reply to them on the forums (the result of unending attacks on various manufacturers back in the days when they did participate). Now the manufacturers confine their comments to their own forums.
When I read my original post I found it sort of like stepping back in time as I recognized how little I knew about the Revolution back then and how much I have learned through the months that this topic has been developing.
One thing that surprised me is that I have NOT bought many more Revolutions since then. No more transmitters and just a few receivers. Instead of putting the receivers into locos I already owned (as I had planned) I ended up instead buying new large Aristo diesel locomotives to put them in along with a lot of new Aristo freight cars (mainly UP). This amounted to a major change in how I now operate my outside layouts and how our club operates. I never ran long freight trains before but now I often run long (for me) UP freight trains. To a large extent this is because I can now control a train (and via linking confirm that I am in control) as I assemble it or disassemble it while I am inside the crawl space and the loco is on the other side of a brick and cinder block wall pushing or pulling the cars I am loading or unloading from the tracks. For the first time I feel comfortable building trains that are much longer than the sidings I had parked the trains on in the past. I have gone from pulling 8 car freight trains to now pulling 12 to 22 car freight trains and if so inclined I could pull much longer trains.
I am sure that this could be done with some other systems but not with any of the systems I previously owned and not with any system that does not include two way communication with the receiver. The combination of the Aristo-Craft Plug and Play Interface and the Revolution has been what it took to separate me from my money.
Now that we are into the hot summer months with unpredictable afternoon showers I have to have trains that I can fairly quickly assemble and run (before I get too hot) and bring inside and disassemble (before everything gets soaked).
Going back to my original post I think I explained myself and the purpose of this topic very well when I said:
I AM NOT trying to sell the Revolution. I already made my decision to buy it and I DO NOT have any desire to be told that I made a mistake in how I spent MY money. I just want to learn more about it and to share with others how to get the most out of the Revolution.
I am still learning more about it.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 25 May 2010 07:06 AM |
|
Posted By nkelsey on 24 May 2010 06:26 PM
The revolution Tx has a plug for recharging, has anyone seen or found a charger to fit this?
Hi Nick,
I believe this is what you are looking for:
CRE57080 TX BATTERY NICAD BATTERY & CHG $15.00
I have them on order but as far as I know they have not been released yet (I have not seen any). With a $15.00 MSRP it is cheap enough and with the battery charge indicator on the Revolution I suspect many if not most of us with Revolutions will want it.
If a production schedule has been announced I have not seen it.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
blueregal
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:1884
|
| 25 May 2010 08:27 AM |
|
Me thinks Jerry, is just tryin to keep this thread a goin!!! What you tink!! Regal |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 25 May 2010 08:56 AM |
|
Posted By blueregal on 25 May 2010 08:27 AM
Me thinks Jerry, is just tryin to keep this thread a goin!!! What you tink!! Regal
Me thinks it is hot outside (already) and Jerry likes to run his trains for awhile and then he comes inside where it is cool. Rather than watch something stupid on TV Jerry likes to talk about what he has been doing.
Jerry is retired and he has a lot of free time to play with trains and to talk about trains.
MLS is like a radio. It has lots and lots of channels. It even has an On/Off switch.
If folks stopped listening and responding Jerry would find something different to do with his free time.
Eventually everyone (even Jerry) will get tired of talking about the Revolution and everyone (including Jerry) will move on to something elsewhere.
Sometimes Jerry gets bored with his toy trains and goes months and months without posting or reading anything on MLS or any other forum.
Me thinks some folks like to poke fun at Jerry and/or anything about the Revolution. Jerry doesn't mind as long as they are respectful.
Jerry thinks they are funny. If Jerry thinks a topic is a waste of time Jerry does not keep going back to it. Maybe they are bored and have nothing better to do with their time than to keep coming back to this topic and poke fun at it. Maybe its hot outside there too.
What you tink?
|
|
|
|
|
jmill24
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:312
|
| 25 May 2010 09:40 AM |
|
GO! Jerry GO!...............Is it true NBC offered you your own weekly series on prime time. It should be called "Here's Jerry". It is good to see someone having so much fun and not let anyone spoil it...................Jim |
|
Videos - - http://www.youtube.com/user/trainman24
Photos -- http://picasaweb.google.com/Trainman24
Web Page -- http://home.comcast.net/~jmill24/site/ |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 25 May 2010 12:41 PM |
|
Posted By jmill24 on 25 May 2010 09:40 AM
GO! Jerry GO!...............Is it true NBC offered you your own weekly series on prime time. It should be called "Here's Jerry". It is good to see someone having so much fun and not let anyone spoil it...................Jim
Hi Jim,
Nothing about a prime time show to report but our phones have not been working for the past few days so maybe NBC has been trying to reach me and have not been able to get through.
It is very unfortunate but I believe a lot of people on the forums tend to become polarized by the unique features of different systems. They get personally attracted to one specific system (or brand) and then they become advocates of those systems spending their time trying to convert everyone else to their beliefs. If large scale systems were religions I would be a heretic (which may be why some seem to want to burn me at the stake). They may think I am challenging them when I have simply fallen asleep during their sermon.
To my way of thinking this is pure and utter nonsense. The whole point of this hobby is all about having fun. Why on earth should (and by what right does) anyone presume to tell anyone else what they should do with their money? I for one do not have the slightest concern for what someone else does with their money and I take great offense when someone presumes to tell me what I should do.
The truth is that while some systems (and brands) have significant benefits to some (according to whatever it is that appeals to the buyer) other systems (and brands) have very different benefits that far better suit others (according to whatever it is that appeals to those buyers).
There is a significant safety in buying everything from one manufacturer (any manufacturer) and standardizing on one operating system (any operating system) - even from a particular dealer - because then, if something goes wrong, it is a lot easier to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. If your friends share the same system they can be very valuable in helping you to sort out your problems.
For me that is not good enough. If I want an E-8, a Mogul, a Rack Loco, an NW-2, a Forney, a Fortuna Flyer, a Challenger and a Big Boy I am never going to get them from a single manufacturer and I am never going to be able to run them all with anyone's favorite operating system.
The Revolution opened new doors for me along with the E-8, GP-40, SD-45 and Dash-9. If anyone wishes to follow me through those Revolution doors and find out what I am finding out - they are welcome to follow me. There are plenty of other doors for others to look into. Always look for the happy people - not the ones with frowns on their faces.
Cheers,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 25 May 2010 01:03 PM |
|
As I was running trains this morning there were a few things that struck me that I particularly like about the Revolution.
1. Because of my screen doors I sometimes lose my link with a locomotive (eventually I will replace the metal screens with fiberglass ones but thanks to the Revolution I am not in a rush to do it). What I like here is that I can dial in the speed I want the loco to go (even when I do not have a link) and just as soon as the loco picks up the link it will GRADUALLY increase or decrease its speed to what I dialed in. The Momentum apparently keeps the loco from jerking quickly to a faster or slower speed.
2. Sometimes the high degree of control over the loco can be frustrating when coupling cars. I want to bring the loco in fast if it is far away but then I want to slow it down quickly so I don't ram the cars I want to couple. The same is true when going past crossover turnouts and reversing through them and then reversing again to go forward again on the new track (I do the same thing when building a train and reversing/forwarding the loco through sidings (like a switchback) as I add cars to the train). Again the Momentum can help a lot. I can flip from forward to reverse and the Momentum does not jerk the loco to a stop but quickly slows it down so I can reverse it through the crossover. Sometimes I cheat and hit reverse for a quick slow down and as soon as the loco stops I hit stop (this really shortens the distance it takes to slow down a fast train).
Like everything else the Revolution takes some time and some trial and error to figure out how to get the best performance out of it.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Cougar Rock Rail
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:1252
|
| 25 May 2010 01:34 PM |
|
They may think I am challenging them when I have simply fallen asleep during their sermon Ha ha, I'll have to remember that line! Keith |
|
| H&LA#1
SA2695 |
|
|
jmill24
Brakeman
Send Message
Posts:312
|
| 25 May 2010 02:04 PM |
|
Sunday I am having Friends and family over for an open house. There will be a bunch of kids there and they all will get a turn at running a train. All I do is set the Momentum, Delay amd Max speed to 50 to 60 and let them go. |
|
Videos - - http://www.youtube.com/user/trainman24
Photos -- http://picasaweb.google.com/Trainman24
Web Page -- http://home.comcast.net/~jmill24/site/ |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 25 May 2010 06:42 PM |
|
Jerry, have you played with the speed step feature? I don't do much switching but when I am playing around wiith building a train I set the speed step to 1 or 2. That gives pretty fine control. I do the same if I have two or three locos running indepently on the same track.
If I am just letting it run I will set it to 4 or 5. That allows me to quickly set my speed and let momentum slowly let the loco get there.
It is so easy to change these settings it is no problem to switch back and forth.
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 25 May 2010 08:18 PM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 25 May 2010 06:42 PM
Jerry, have you played with the speed step feature? I don't do much switching but when I am playing around with building a train I set the speed step to 1 or 2. That gives pretty fine control. I do the same if I have two or three locos running indepently on the same track.
If I am just letting it run I will set it to 4 or 5. That allows me to quickly set my speed and let momentum slowly let the loco get there.
It is so easy to change these settings it is no problem to switch back and forth.
Speed Step? No.
That apparently is one more thing I have yet to learn about the Revolution. I will have to look it up.
So far I just run until I can't do something and then someone like you, Stan, Ed or someone else (I know I am forgetting some guys here) jumps in and tells me about something I did not know about.
So far no one has told me to go buy a book which happened often when I asked questions about MTS/DCC. I like LGB but their instructions were terrible - especially when it came to do anything with MTS/DCC. For me the beauty of the Revolution is that it is pretty user friendly and intuitive. Often I can figure out things just by scrolling through the menus.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 25 May 2010 08:41 PM |
|
A comment I would like to make about running trains today is sort of related to the Revolution but not directly.
I ordered more Aristo-Craft Re-railer tracks today. 12 of these will be used on the six 12' tracks that I store many of my freight cars on. The re-railers will be used in sets of two. Another two are already in use on the track that feeds to the outside layout. The remaining ones will be installed in various places around the layouts (adding to those already there).
One challenge when working with the Revolution or with MTS/DCC or DCS is that they all work with full power on the rails at all times. This means that when I am putting up to 40 or more freight cars and cabooses onto a "hot" rail there is a high probability that one of the wheels is going to short out the power supply. If I am inside and the power supply is outside I have to run outside to reset everything and run back. This just adds another delay in getting the trains operational or parking them. A big benefit from using the re-railers (especially in pairs) is that it is a LOT easier to put a lot of cars on the tracks with a much reduced risk of shorting the hot rails. This is in addition to the tremendous advantage of speed in putting a lot of cars on the rails and aligning the wheels with the tracks via the re-railer rather than visually or manually.
Then when it comes time to take the cars off the operating track and to put them onto the storage tracks it will be a LOT faster to do it if the re-railers are lining up the wheels with the track for me (even if the rails are unpowered). This can be VERY important to me if I am trying to put trains away before a fast approaching storm.
At first I was going to split the order between brass and stainless steel track but re-railers are one of those places where a flat surface track cleaner rises above the rails and does not do a good job of cleaning the rails in a re-railer. Instead I opted for all stainless steel track in the re-railers so that cleaning the tracks in them will not be an issue.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 25 May 2010 08:46 PM |
|
Jerry, in a belated response, I meant what I said literally, I believe Lewis thinks you are giving it a fair shake, and I meant what I said, bet he was pleased.
On a different comment, no one has told you to buy a book because none exist, and the limited functions of the Revolution as compared to DCC don't really need a book, it's a proprietary system not designed for manufacture by others, or expansion, etc.
That's not a negative statement, it's a defining statement.
By the way, the books (which are more articles) on DCC I have read are pretty worthless in my opinion, some are thinly veiled attempts to promote one manufactures' products, others "fill out" the volume with repetition or needless explanation of things no longer required or true.
But I digress on DCC... stay on the Revo...
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 25 May 2010 08:52 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 25 May 2010 08:46 PM
Jerry, in a belated response, I meant what I said literally, I believe Lewis thinks you are giving it a fair shake, and I meant what I said, bet he was pleased.
On a different comment, no one has told you to buy a book because none exist, and the limited functions of the Revolution as compared to DCC don't really need a book, it's a proprietary system not designed for manufacture by others, or expansion, etc.
That's not a negative statement, it's a defining statement.
By the way, the books (which are more articles) on DCC I have read are pretty worthless in my opinion, some are thinly veiled attempts to promote one manufactures' products, others "fill out" the volume with repetition or needless explanation of things no longer required or true.
But I digress on DCC... stay on the Revo...
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
I agree with everything you said 100%.
I don't think you were digressing or being negative - you were defining and again I agree with your comments 100%.
Regards,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 26 May 2010 08:07 AM |
|
I forget the reason why but Dallee had advised that if I did not follow the Revolution instructions on their web site that the sound would shut off as the loco's speed increased. Dallee's instructions say:
AristoCraft boards labeled "SOUND PWR" are actually connected to the "Motor Power" before the motor "On/Off" switch. While they can be connected to this connector, it is not ideal since the motor switch does not disconnect this connection when the motor power is switched off. Connect these two wires to either the motor power leads or the "Sound Pwr" connector wires. This is the same that goes to the motor. The "Sound Power" should come from the track or battery and not the motor in this application. See wiring example on lower part of this page.
Yesterday that happened for the first time (with a SD-45). I have not observed it with any other locos and I have not looked for it. Also I have not installed many Dallee sound systems so far (I am waiting for delivery on the rest).
It is probably a good idea to follow the Dallee instructions. The high speed shut off may be something that slow runners (which I normally am) would not notice for a long time - until someone runs their loco fast.
Where you tap for power for other sound systems may or may not have an effect on non-Dallee sound systems. I don't know.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 27 May 2010 06:55 PM |
|
Jerry,
Sounds like you could benefit from a "speed loader". I have seen two, one made by Split Jaw. They are ramps that you set on your track. They have two grooves on the low end for the rails to go into. The other end is raised a few inches and it has guides to straighten the wheels.
Just put it on the track and put your car on it and let it roll. You car will roll down the ramp and right onto the track. You can load cars as fast as you can place them on the ramp. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 27 May 2010 07:56 PM |
|
Hi Ward,
It sounds similar to the 10020s I have from LGB. They work fairly well but I have never found anything that works as well for me as the Aristo-Craft Rerailers - especially when I put two of the Aristo-Craft ones in series. They can do both trucks at the same time while the LGB one only does a single truck at a time.
If I have some rolling stock to be put on the track at a location used infrequently I use the LGB rerailers but when I know in advance that I will be putting a lot of cars on the track and I know where it will be I use the Aristo-Craft ones. I also made an extension for my lower caboose layout storage where I can slide a pair of Aristo rerailers onto the individual tracks and roll stock onto the sidings.
The other benefit of the Aristo rerailers is that it is reassuring to know that if something derails and I do not notice it there is a fair chance the next rerailer it crosses will put it back on the rails.
I even use a triple rerailer just inside the doorway to the screened porch in case someone accidentally steps on it. If they stepped on the tracks they would probably damage the tracks or trip on them but not with the rerailers.
I can see that one advantage of the LGB type (I have not seen the others) is that its design should be even better at preventing any shorts while putting rolling stock on powered rails.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 28 May 2010 03:06 PM |
|
I agree about their intended purpose. I have them leading into and out of my tunnels. Hope to catch any derailments before they drag down the side of the tunnel. I used a split jaw 2' version for across the pathway.
The loading ramps I've seen look like a much longer version of the LGB ramp you pictured.
Preventing shorts is one reason I went with a Revo RX to control my track power. I can't run more than 3 or 4 locos on the track but I do have remote control of the track power. I will be switching to the track side units when they come out. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 28 May 2010 04:19 PM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 28 May 2010 03:06 PM
Preventing shorts is one reason I went with a Revo RX to control my track power. I can't run more than 3 or 4 locos on the track but I do have remote control of the track power. I will be switching to the track side units when they come out.
So you are not going to be using the Revolution as an on-board receiver?
Out of curiosity why the Revolution instead of a regular Train Engineer? In the past I used Train Engineers but bought the Revolution mainly because it seemed so easy to install compared to the previous on-board Train Engineers that, with the PnP interface, for the first time I was interested in an on-board receiver.
With the Train Engineer I (personally) could only handle one train per track. Even with the Revolution I still just run one train per track but the appeal of the Revolution to me was that I could put multiple trains on the track and then pick which one I wanted to run.
I am not disagreeing - I just like to understand why people do what they do.
Regards,
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 28 May 2010 07:48 PM |
|
Jerry, I will explain better.
I have two loops and one point to point, one Elite power supply powering all three. I use three on board Revo RXs as track side units to control the power from the Elite.
I also install Revo RXs into all my diesels, some other locos and my sound box cars.
I had the 27Mhz TEs but I wanted one remote controlling both my track power and locos. I use cabs 0, 1 and 2 for track power and the following cabs for my locos. That way if I hit All Stop the tracks lose power first. When Aristo comes out with the true track side unit, I will use those instead of the on board units.
I MU my locos with my Revo equipped sound box cars. This set up works very well for me. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 28 May 2010 08:35 PM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 28 May 2010 07:48 PM
Jerry, I will explain better.
I have two loops and one point to point, one Elite power supply powering all three. I use three on board Revo RXs as track side units to control the power from the Elite.
I also install Revo RXs into all my diesels, some other locos and my sound box cars.
I had the 27Mhz TEs but I wanted one remote controlling both my track power and locos. I use cabs 0, 1 and 2 for track power and the following cabs for my locos. That way if I hit All Stop the tracks lose power first. When Aristo comes out with the true track side unit, I will use those instead of the on board units.
I MU my locos with my Revo equipped sound box cars. This set up works very well for me.
Hi Ward,
That makes a lot of sense. I figured there had to be more to the story.
Thanks for the clarification,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 28 May 2010 08:55 PM |
|
Posted By Ward H on 28 May 2010 07:48 PM
When Aristo comes out with the true track side unit, I will use those instead of the on board units.
What do you feel will be the advantage of a "track side" unit compared to the on-board units you use now to control the track voltage? Are there any specs out on a track-side unit?
Will it be able to handle more current?
Will it have a regular DC option or only PWC?
|
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 28 May 2010 09:25 PM |
|
Posted By krs on 28 May 2010 08:55 PM
Posted By Ward H on 28 May 2010 07:48 PM
When Aristo comes out with the true track side unit, I will use those instead of the on board units.
What do you feel will be the advantage of a "track side" unit compared to the on-board units you use now to control the track voltage?
There are folks who prefer track power. The new track side will provide the same features that the present on-board units offer.
Are there any specs out on a track-side unit?
The specs have not been "officially" published. An informational release should be available following it's introduction at the BTS and SWGRS on the weekend of June 5&6, 2010.
Per a post on the Aristo Forum, the release date is scheduled for July 2010.
Will it be able to handle more current?
It was designed to have continuous 15 amp capabilities with a 20 amp peak.
Will it have a regular DC option or only PWC?
It will be PWC only.
|
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 May 2010 07:24 AM |
|
Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 28 May 2010 09:25 PM
What do you feel will be the advantage of a "track side" unit compared to the on-board units you use now to control the track voltage?
There are folks who prefer track power. The new track side will provide the same features that the present on-board units offer.
Will it be able to handle more current?
It was designed to have continuous 15 amp capabilities with a 20 amp peak.
What appeals to me is that 15 - 20 amp capability.
That should be more than double the through put amps of the previous Train Engineers plus I expect it to be designed for current Aristo power supplies including the 15 amp 24 volt Everest while the original TE's were designed for the 10 amp 18 volt Ultima. Sometimes my TE's overheat and shut down with some non-Aristo power supplies.
The most I can get out of my TE's is around 7 to 8 amps (even with a 15 amp power supply). This has not been quite enough (for me) to run two FA-1/FB-1/FB-1/FA-1's each with up to four sound systems and pulling six lighted Streamliners.
Hopefully the new unit will have much higher through put amps.
Then too since the Revolution has a graphics display I would expect it to work the same with a track side unit.
It should be interesting to see.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 29 May 2010 08:38 AM |
|
krs,
What do you feel will be the advantage of a "track side" unit compared to the on-board units you use now to control the track voltage?
For me it will be the additional current capacity. Since I started using the Revo I have been double heading locos, running two trains at once. 2 RS3s and 2 S4s are no problem with the on-board supplying the track power. But when I try 2 of those with my GP40 and or GP7, the RX powering the track overloads. The new 15amp unit will allow me to as many locos as I can fit, on the loop.
The second reason is that it will have enough power to supply all 3 of my tracks. Now I will have one button to press to cut all power.
My power supply is in my shed, 40 to 50 ft from the layout. I will not run full track power without a means to shut it all down quickly. I got in line fuses but I have also had locos derail and one truck sit there and grind away at the rails. Worse when two locos are double headed.
I frequently turn the trains on and get distracted. Walk over the the neighbors, come in for a beer and get on the forums, etc. Even went on fire calls and forgot about the trains. I showed my wife how to hit one button on the remote to shut it all down.
The "Track Side" RX will be at Cab 0 so All Stop will shut down the power to all tracks first.
For my point to point I will still have an on-board RX supplying power to the reversing unit so I can control the speed. I will feed power to the on-board RX from the new "Track Side" RX.
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 May 2010 08:57 AM |
|
You guys are starting to get my mind playing tricks on me.
Currently, the first train I run is a Rail Broom Train to clear the tracks of any leaves, twigs etc. The train (described earlier) runs on track power but I can control it with the throttle and since it takes more power than my Revolution equipped diesels I can run those at the same time but I have to be at the throttle.
Now you have me thinking that if I had a Revolution Track Side powering the track and through that, the Revolution Receivers in the diesels, I may be able to control the Rail Broom Train via the Track Side Revolution - including direction which would let me run it and then park it on a siding with a manual switch to depower the siding. I could then proceed to running the rest of the Revolution controlled trains by just leaving the Track Side at whatever power level I want (with it indicated on the Revolution).
Another benefit (just this minute occurred to me) is that the one thing I don't like about the Revolution (and DCC and DCS) is that the tracks are on full power while I add locomotives and rolling stock to those hot rails - with the possibility of kicking the circuit breaker off and having to run back and forth to reset it. I think Ward said something similar. Maybe Ward planted the seed for this thought.
If my thinking is correct I should be able to use the same Revolution Transmitter to SHUT OFF the track power (via the Track Side) while I load locomotives and cars onto the rails and then via the Revolution Transmitter to then safely bring the track voltage back up again.
Does this make sense to anyone else?
I think I am talking myself into buying one of these things and just maybe I won't be the only one doing this. I wonder if Lewis had thought of it?
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
East Broad Top
Moderator
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3607
|
| 29 May 2010 09:23 AM |
|
What's the voltage output of the trackside unit look like on a scope? If it's linear, you're in good shape. (If I recall, the original trackside units have a switch where you can select linear or PWM) I know the Revolution freaks out when it's sitting on powered track with a DCC signal superimposed on it. I'm not sure how it would behave when powered with a PWM signal. How effective would the cap boards be in filtering that out? Or would it be sufficient to crank the power to full to eliminate the pulses?
Personally, I think for what's being discussed here--having the trackside TE in place for those "just in case" situations--it makes more sense to have a bypass switch at the power supply that would cut out the trackside TE when you're running your on-board stuff. You'd never be running both at the same time; you couldn't. I understand the theory behind the "all stop" button closing cab 0 first, in effect shutting everything down at that one instant, but if the output of that is PWM and the onboard stuff doesn't play well with PWM (which I don't know whether it does or not), you may be introducing some nasties into the equation as it ramps the speed down. (Again, too, the cap boards may filter it enough, I don't know.)
Later,
K |
|
Tuscarora Railroad Blog
Friends of the East Broad Top |
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 29 May 2010 09:45 AM |
|
If you need a remote kill switch, I would do something with an accessory controller and a relay, simple, cheap, and if you don't have a linear mode on the new trackside may be the only solution.
Why waste an entire trackside? Also the all stop command on the Revo is VERY slow, it stops all locos one by one... of course it does start with the first loco, so your trackside set to that address will work.
Don't expect to get 15 amps at 24 volts.... just like all electronic devices, the limit is WATTS, not just volts or amps alone... that's the same thing as what has happened to many Airwire users that did not read the information, and expected 10 amps at 24 volts, when the unit is rated 10 amps at 12 volts.
That's also why Jerry only gets 7-8 amps instead of 10, because he's most likely over 12 volts. Also Jerry, don't EVEN think of the "20 amp peak", you need to use ratings that are sustained... especially if you already work your equipment to the limit (not criticizing, just observing).
Ward does some interesting stuff, and considering the cost of the Revo units, pretty cool.
The trackside units are significantly more, looks to be double the price or a bit more, so the same idea might not be as cost effective.
Regards, Greg |
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 May 2010 10:17 AM |
|
Posted By East Broad Top on 29 May 2010 09:23 AM
I know the Revolution freaks out when it's sitting on powered track with a DCC signal superimposed on it.
Later,
K
I can't talk about the other stuff - it is way over my head. I know what an oscilloscope looked like 60 years ago and I might find the on/off switch but then I would be lost.
Regarding the DCC signal Aristo has a couple of bridge rectifiers that I believe are supposed to make it possible to run a Revolution on a DCC powered track. I bought some of them but they are still in the bags and I have never tried them so I cannot say how well they work.
I figured out that I must have put a MRC decoder into that Lionel 0-4-0 so perhaps one of these days I will get around to using it as a guinea pig but don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.
Someday....
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Ward H
Passenger
Send Message
Posts:178
|
| 29 May 2010 10:40 AM |
|
Greg,
There is one other advantage to using the new track side RX as a master control. I will still be able to run stock DC locos when I want to. If it wasn't for that using the new accessory controller and relay idea would work fine.
Kevin,
I have been running my three tracks with the Revo on board RXs for 11 months. I have Aristo USA and Bachmann locos with the Revo installed for a total of 10 Revo powered locos, all running on track supplied by Revo on board RXs. I have set the track side RXs to 75% and everything has run well. One loco (RDC) does not have the cap board in it. One Revo powers the Aristo reversing unit.
To me, this indicates that you can supply the Revo RXs with PWM power with no adverse effects. I thought that DCC was AC voltage and that is why you needed a bridge rectifier to run a Revo on DCC powered track.
Stan,
I have the new software in my Revo TX. When programed to "Base" mode there is an option for PWM or Linear. Has this now changed?
Jerry,
You got it! I have run the same scenario you describe. I did it just to see if it would work and it did. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 May 2010 10:53 AM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 May 2010 09:45 AM
If you need a remote kill switch, I would do something with an accessory controller and a relay, simple, cheap, and if you don't have a linear mode on the new trackside may be the only solution.
Why waste an entire trackside?
Don't expect to get 15 amps at 24 volts.... just like all electronic devices, the limit is WATTS, not just volts or amps alone...
That's also why Jerry only gets 7-8 amps instead of 10, because he's most likely over 12 volts. Also Jerry, don't EVEN think of the "20 amp peak", you need to use ratings that are sustained... especially if you already work your equipment to the limit (not criticizing, just observing).
Regards, Greg
Hi Greg,
As usual you bring up some good points and you are right in that I do already work my equipment to the limit (and sometimes beyond). Long, multiple diesel unit, multiple trains with heavy lighted passenger trains are what I really enjoy. If I split the trains and run one on each mainline with each controlled by a Train Engineer all is OK. It is only when I put all the lighted Streamliners on a single track that the amps run high - and there are no light switches.
I should have made it clear that I was not suggesting that anyone should buy a Track Side (if that is what it Will be called) just for the shut off ability. What I meant to say is that it would be (to me anyway) a nice feature IF someone was already going to buy it. I wonder if we are going to start calling it a TS because Track Side is a lot to type.
I don't expect to get 15 amps but I do hope to get more than the 7 - 8 amps that I get out of my existing TE's and other brand remotes. Less than that and I would be back to the same limitations I have with other remote systems. If I could at least get 10 amps that would probably be enough to handle the FA Warbonnet Streamliners that need more than 7 - 8 amps. Perhaps there are reasons unknown to me why that 7 - 8 amps seems to be the norm including 15 amp power supplies.
If it turns out that the Track Side unit has no more than 7 - 8 amps output that would probably be fine for most people but for me personally my idea of using it in series with the Revolution on board receivers would be a non-starter - so far the answer is yet to be determined. I guess I need to get in line and wait for the answers to come out.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
krs
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2063
|
| 29 May 2010 12:30 PM |
|
For an emergency remote kill switch I would do something that is totally independent of the Revolution.
In fact - I would do that with any other system as well including DCC.
If there is a problem that requires that the power to the layout be shut down immediately and absolutely reliably. I would not depend on any radio controlled system that may not react due to interference or God knows what. When one has many amps going to the track one can't afford an emergency kill switch not to work for ant reason - just my thoughts. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 May 2010 02:11 PM |
|
Posted By krs on 29 May 2010 12:30 PM
For an emergency remote kill switch I would do something that is totally independent of the Revolution.
In fact - I would do that with any other system as well including DCC.
If there is a problem that requires that the power to the layout be shut down immediately and absolutely reliably. I would not depend on any radio controlled system that may not react due to interference or God knows what. When one has many amps going to the track one can't afford an emergency kill switch not to work for ant reason - just my thoughts.
Hi Knut,
I have always found a long nail or screw to be a perfect kill switch. Maybe I should not say this since we are getting up in the amps but like I always say, I only report what I do - I don't recommend it to others.
If anyone wishes to say why this is a dumb idea I invite them to do so and I will not dispute them.
If safety is an issue a little heat shrink or electrical tape in the middle should resolve that. For that matter a 4" - 6" piece of brass or stainless track should work quite nicely with less chance of it getting hot from the short.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Stan Cedarleaf
1st Class Member
Conductor
Send Message
Posts:3358
|
| 29 May 2010 03:55 PM |
|
Jerry... I've been perusing these latest posts and wondering what might happen if you did use the New Trackside to power the track to run the 0-4-0 and then control other trains with onboard receivers on the same track.
Ward's description seems to make good sense as he's basically doing that now without adverse reaction between the 5 amp receiver used as a trackside and the 5 amp receivers used on board and powered by the PWC from the track.
Like my old High School Earth Science teacher used to quote, "Where would the turtle be if he didn't stick his neck out?!?!?!". That's not so much of a question as it is a positive statement.
As for running the ABBA and 12 passenger cars with full lighting. I'd say go for it. From reports on amperage tests, the unit stays cool even under heavy loads. It's also been reported that a test was run with an FABBA pulling 40 cars using a single 14.8 volt battery and the heat sink was barely warm.
|
|
Dewey, AZ
Cedarleaf Custom Railroad Decals
Email Contact |
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 29 May 2010 04:23 PM |
|
Posted By Stan Cedarleaf on 29 May 2010 03:55 PM
Jerry... I've been perusing these latest posts and wondering what might happen if you did use the New Trackside to power the track to run the 0-4-0 and then control other trains with onboard receivers on the same track.
Hi Stan,
That is exactly what I have been doing except I have been getting my power from the Aristo Everest and controlling the 0-4-0 with the Aristo 15 amp controller.
Of course if I turn the throttle all the way down both will stop but since the 0-4-0 takes more track voltage to run than the SD-45's I occasionally follow the 0-4-0 (on track power) with a SD-45 freight train (on Revolution Receiver). That way I get to watch two trains while I clean the trash off the tracks.
The 0-4-0 would notice no difference if I controlled it with a Track Side but the difference for me would be that I could walk out and switch turnouts and power sidings while running the 0-4-0 rather than having to run back to the Controller every time I wanted to do anything.
Then too I could remotely turn off the track power with the Revolution Transmitter - again without running back to the Controller. Unlike the Transmitter where the STOP may only stop one loco - with the Track Side I could bring everything to a controlled stop - quickly.
It may not take long but when a phone is ringing time moves fast.
Its always fun to play "What If's." I usually like to wait until someone else spends their money first and I get to play with their new toy before I give my money up for that toy.
I have a victim (I mean friend) in mind that I think can be talked into buying a Track Side so I can play with his first. He bought a Revolution long before I did and it was playing with his that convinced me to buy my own.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 02 Jun 2010 10:03 AM |
|
Yesterday more weights and sound units arrived so I am back to installing Dallee sound units into the E-8's that already have Revolutions installed in them.
This schematic is ONLY for the installation of a Dallee sound system. It DOES NOT include anything else which is why some things like the black and brown wires for smoke units are not connected to anything.
My previous posts had been left with a decision that I would switch from using the Aristo instructions to using the Dallee instructions. As I looked at the Dallee instructions I was having a bit of trouble keeping them clear in my mind so I made this schematic up for me to better understand exactly what I am going to do.
I believe it is accurate but I have not yet installed anything using it. I never guarantee anything as I can and do make mistakes. The reason I am posting this is that it may help others as it will help me. Bear in mind that neither Aristo nor Dallee have seen this or approved it. I've done it for my own benefit.
If anyone sees anything I have left out or wired wrong let me know and I will change it.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 02 Jun 2010 05:44 PM |
|
I have now completed the installation of the SD-45 lead weights and the Dallee sound system in a Warbonnet E-8.
Happily everything worked exactly as Dallee said it would and I now have the added ability to remotely turn the sound system off plus whatever the sound is that J5-1 makes happen.
One word of caution - because the Dallee instructions do not use the same wires that the Aristo-Craft instructions do (at least not in the same way) if you follow the Dallee instructions and solder the Black, Red and Gray wires to the mother board, these wires will then not be long enough to put the sound system any distance from the Revolution board. I would suggest having some spare wires to extend those wires and give more options as to where to position the sound board.
As it arrived, the Dallee sound unit had the volume all the way down (counterclockwise). I turned it all the way up. The Speed Set was also all the way counterclockwise. After playing with it I ended up leaving it with the black notch (visible from above the board) set to about the 1 o'clock position. This dial controls how fast the sound ramps up.
Since I normally run these locos at about 55 on the Revolution (NOT to be confused with what you may prefer) I decided to speed the loco up to 55 and then adjust the dial until it reached full speed at 55.
To do this I set the frame and trucks sideways on the table with the top off (so I could reach the dials). I then connected the power supply to the MU connector but had to put the loco into the Battery position for the MU connection to be active. It appears that the MU does not power the trucks when the power is in the Track position which seems strange but I may be doing something wrong.
I seem to recall something about polarity being critical when powering a loco through the MU connector when running on batteries but I don't remember what it was or where I saw it and maybe I am confusing it with something else.
For whatever reason, I would advise that before powering the loco via the MU connector one should be sure of what they are doing (more so than me).
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 03 Jun 2010 08:28 AM |
|
The 2nd Warbonnet E-8 is now almost done. I just have to tune up the sound unit and screw the top back on.
These photos may help others intending this installation.
There may be a better place to put the sound board (because there is no access to the volume control without taking the top off) but this is what I ended up doing.
I hate soldering but I went ahead and soldered the Black, Gray and Red wires to the mother board as per the Dallee instructions.
Then I reverted back to my favorite way of connecting wires - 3M IDC (Insulation Displacement Connectors).
in this case I used the 3M UY Telephone Connectors.
Those UY Connectors really made the installation a LOT easier and a LOT faster. No solder, no tape or heat-shrink - just slide the wires into the connector and squeeze the connector shut. One of the best things is that the wires are visible so it can be easily confirmed that the wires are in far enough for a good connection.
If this sounds like I am "selling" them perhaps that is because I did sell them for many years before I retired. Now that I am retired I am not as much selling them as I am sharing my belief that these are a great way to connect wires. My 3M paychecks stopped coming 10 years ago.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
Send Message
Posts:14812
|
| 03 Jun 2010 10:32 AM |
|
Jerry, be sure to read my post in "product reviews" about no linear mode, and the restriction in powering the new "Trackside Revo" / "Super Receiver".
It might affect your plans.
Regards, Greg
|
|
Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
Click here for Greg's web site
Note: I'm tired of the acrimony too, so I may not respond or participate in these types of threads. You can email me privately so I can help you without conflict.
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled Private Messaging, please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 03 Jun 2010 02:43 PM |
|
Posted By Greg Elmassian on 03 Jun 2010 10:32 AM
Jerry, be sure to read my post in "product reviews" about no linear mode, and the restriction in powering the new "Trackside Revo" / "Super Receiver".
It might affect your plans.
Regards, Greg
I have been waiting to see what developed regarding the Revolution having linear mode. Since I have a lot of old Sierra Soundtraxx boards I will probably wait for the adapter board. Meanwhile I have the 15 amp Controllers and I am not much of a walk around guy anyway. I can wait.
Regards,
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 03 Jun 2010 03:09 PM |
|
My next project was going to be to put a Dallee sound system in a 2nd SD-45. I did not anticipate any problems because I had already done one before and it was pretty easy.
What I had not anticipated was that since I have decided to go with the Dallee instructions I was unprepared for what I found when I pulled the Revolution off the SD-45 mother board:
The mother board in a SD-45 is totally different from the mother board in the E-8's. Beyond that the Dallee instructions do not show this mother board.
Additionally the orientation of this board in the SD-45 is opposite to the board in an E-8 so if you use the Speaker jack to orient you, the chances are that you may end up soldering to the WRONG switch pins. You have to turn everything around to figure out which wire is to be soldered where.
The revised schematic I have made for the Dallee sound system going into a SD-45 is this:
NOTICE: The Black, Gray and Red leads from the mother board are reversed from the way they come off the mother board on the E-8 schematic. Also in my picture the jacks for the Speaker and Sound Power are not pictured correctly. I was lazy and I just copied them from the other schematic since I was interested in proper color coding rather than having the photo perfect. On the SD-45 the jacks are side by side rather than back to back. The wire sets will only fit the right way so I was not concerned about this.
If you look carefully you will find another change.
Instead of using the Green Sound Power Lead I have used the Red Sound Power Lead. When I used the green one everything worked fine except the sound did not change when the loco moved.
A phone call to Dallee confirmed that I needed to switch to the Red lead. Once I did that everything worked OK (so don't cut either the red or the green lead short until after you are sure you will not need them).
While talking about differences, there is one more difference I noticed between the wiring of the SD-45 and the E-8's which is that the MU connector of the SD-45 works in the Track Power position but the MU connector of the E-8's ONLY works when the power switch is in the Battery position. In effect (unless I am missing something) the SD-45 can MU with another SD-45 under Track Power but the E-8 cannot MU with another E-8 when running under Track Power.
Then again I can only comment on what I have observed with my locos and I have no idea if this is accurate regarding other locos.
Bear in mind that I have prepared these wiring diagrams for my own use. They are accurate only to the extent that I have tried them with my locos. I make no representation or suggestion that in any way they have the approval of either Aristo-Craft or Dallee. I am providing them free so Caveat emptor.
Jerry
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 04 Jun 2010 08:25 AM |
|
I rewired an E-8 (that I had previously installed a Dallee sound system in following the Aristo-Craft instructions) to conform with the Dallee instructions. As I did it I noticed one additional difference. The horn and bell are wired in reverse to the Aristo instructions.
Following the Aristo-Craft instructions #1 is the bell and #2 is the horn.
Following the Dallee instructions #1 is the horn and #2 is the bell.
It is not a big deal but it deserves mentioning.
If you have standardized on any particular buttons you can choose the way you prefer by just changing the blue and green wires where they go to J4.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 04 Jun 2010 04:54 PM |
|
FYI
The Aristo-Craft GP-40 has the same mother board (or at least it appears the same and the Dallee sound system installs the same) as the E-8 and the board in the Dallee instructions. |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 05 Jun 2010 02:03 PM |
|
I am VERY happy to report that I have just finished the installation of the last Dallee sound system going into an Aristo-Craft loco with a PNP (DCC) interface and Revolution.
Everything went pretty much according to the Dallee instructions other than the few exceptions noted.
One item that perhaps should be emphasized is the difference between the solder contacts for the switches on the SD-45 and the other Aristo-Craft diesels I have worked with.
On the regular Aristo mother boards the switch solder contacts are fairly wide and easy to get to. With the SD-45 the contacts are MUCH smaller - so much smaller that one might be inclined to think that two are one (they are NOT).
To emphasize this I have marked the following illustration of a SD-45 mother board showing the SIX contacts for the motor on/off switch and the SIX contacts for the battery/track power switch.
The boxes I marked in red are the contacts that should be soldered to.
Eventually I will probably put Revolutions and Dallee sound systems into two FA-1's that do not have the PNP interface. Since I will be MUing them to FB-1's I am not in a rush to tackle that project.
While I have just finished these installations and I do not have a lot of experience with the "new and improved" locos yet I have to say that I am already very impressed with the difference.
By adding weights to the SD-45's and E-8's they now track through the yard without the previous problems of losing contact with the track.
Most impressive for me is the ability to turn the individual sound systems off via the Revolution transmitter. This combined with the bell is making it very easy for me to confirm that I am in control of the right locomotive. I select the loco I want and then I turn the sound system on plus the bell. That means that the bell comes on for the right loco and since the rest of the locos are quiet there is no confusion about which loco is about to move.
When I am done I turn the "blow down" on confirming I have the right loco again and then turn that loco's sound off.
When power is first turned on all the sound systems getting track power come on for a moment but then I guess they get a signal from the Revolution and all those that are supposed to be turned off shut themselves off (no need to do it all over again).
Speaking of the blow down and sound power off - to activate these options the function keys must be latched. If left in momentary (the default) they will not work. While setting this, check function 6 (smoke unit) to be sure that it too is latched or the smoke unit will not stay on.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
rlvette
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2260
|
| 10 Jul 2011 01:59 PM |
|
OK, time to bring this thread back to the top.
It's too good to waste away in the old threads.
My question: Is there an updated Revolution coming out?
I thought I read somewhere that there was.
If so, how can I tell the updated Revolution from the original release?
Are the transmitters updatable like a PC?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 10 Jul 2011 02:06 PM |
|
Hi Randy,
Yes, there will be a new Revolution coming that will have "Philharmonic Sounds" according to Aristo-Craft. No release date or prices know yet as far as I know.
I picked up a brochure on the Revolution at the NGRC that included features of the future model of the Revolution and I posted a copy of it here:
According to Scott Polk, Aristo-Craft will try to make the new sound system compatible with the current Revolutions but it is not guaranteed that they will be able to do it.
Also, there have been free software upgrades made available for current Revolutions to accommodate new products such as the Remote Switch Device.
Aristo-Craft released a new "Insider" that has information on some other stuff including Servo control with a Revolution.
Jerry |
|
|
|
|
Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
Send Message
Posts:2395
|
| 10 Jul 2011 02:22 PM |
|
I can't believe I started this topi | |