Jerry McColgan
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 | | 29 Sep 2009 09:39 AM |
| OK. I bit the bullet and after telling myself for a year or so that I did not want or need the Revolution I changed my mind and bought it. Actually I bought 3 Revolutions along with the "stuff" to put receivers into 10 locomotives. First let me say that this topic is only intended to reflect my personal experiences with the Aristo-Craft Revolution and IS NOT intended to be any sort of nuts and bolts comparison with any other operating system other than what is coincidental to those systems to the limited extent that I use them on my layouts. Anyone who knows me knows that I am primarily an analog track powered guy and that is unlikely to change. I also have locomotives that I run on LGB's MTS (DCC); MTH's DCS and to a lesser extent battery power and live steam. I do not profess to be an expert on any of them or on anything. I also have NO PLANS to convert from anything to anything but to simply add the Revolution to the current systems that I already operate. If anything this might be considered "The Dummies Guide to The Aristo-Craft Revolution." So what then made me decide to buy the Revolution? 1. Simply the fact that several of my locomotives already came with the Aristo-Craft plug in interface that will fit the Revolution Receiver. 2. Also the fact that those same locomotives already came with the Aristo-Craft switch to go from track to battery power and I was considering going to Marty's but had nothing prepared to run on battery. 3. Being basically thrifty (cheap) I had figured out how to use a surplus floor sweeper 14.4 volt battery to work with an Aristo Train Engineer Receiver mounted in a boxcar but that turned out to be somewhat bulky and heavy and then I found some surplus (cheap) hand vacuum cleaners with 14.4 volt Ni-Cad batteries that were plentiful and even cheaper ($10). I thought I might need a battery powered locomotive to clean my seldom cleaned brass track. 4. I liked the idea of Aristo's capacitor pack to keep the loco running over dirty track. 5. I liked the idea of using a receiver rather than a decoder because it freed me from LGB's MTS 5 amp limit (yes I know there are MTS and DCC alternatives). The receiver meant in effect no limit on the track power amperage and I had found my Aristo F1 ABBA's to be power hogs especially if I ran a pair of them. 6. Since I like lighted passenger cars the amps ran up when I ran a F1 ABBA pulling 11 Aristo Streamliners which is not a problem with a 15 amp power supply and throttle that I already had (I need the throttle to bring the track voltage down to 18 volts to assure long life of my passenger car light bulbs). 7. I like the Revolution's bi-directional communication with the receiver which tells me if the transmitter is still talking with the receiver. As I said, I do not consider this to be a comparison of apples and oranges. In my mind the Revolution is simply a totally different concept in that the transmitter is talking to a receiver rather than to a decoder which makes it independent from a track signal such as MTS/DCC or DCS. I fully intend to keep and continue to use track power, MTS/DCC and DCS. I consider all of them to be oranges, apples and peaches (no lemons) with each having unique features that I would not choose one above all the others. My first experience with the Revolution (which arrived just one day before heading to Marty's) was that I like it. I put it into three locomotives (2 E8s and a GP40) and ran the E8s with one pulling 6 streamliners and the other pulling 12 boxcars and a caboose). While running them for several hours I lost control once (must have pushed the wrong button) which would make me hesitant to hand one over to a visitor to control my trains without some detailed instructions. I also had the receiver shut off (to save the batteries) which has also happened with my MTS and DCS remotes. These may be programming options but this was my first couple of hours experience with a very rushed run through the instructions. When I got to Marty's I realized that everything had Kadee couplers and I did not so I did not actually run my locos but had more than enough running time with Bubba's, Marty's and Eric's stuff. Over the next few weeks I will spend more time with the Revolution and report my results here. One reason I am writing this is that several friends at Marty's mentioned that they had either just bought Revolutions or were going to so perhaps this topic may help them and others. I would really appreciate it if folks who do not have or intend to buy the Revolution would NOT jump in with comparisons with competitive systems as there are more than enough topics on just about every other system out there. By the same token I would appreciate it if folks WHO DO OWN Revolutions would contribute their knowledge to this topic. I AM NOT trying to sell the Revolution. I already made my decision to buy it and I DO NOT have any desire to be told that I made a mistake in how I spent MY money. I just want to learn more about it and to share with others how to get the most out of the Revolution. There is no objection to anyone who bought a Revolution from mentioning things they may have found to be difficult but for those who have no desire to buy a Revolution please do not rain on this parade. This is a show and tell and not a "My Mustang's better than your Camero" type of discussion. Thanks, Jerry | | |
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Jerry McColgan
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| | 29 Sep 2009 09:58 AM |
| A few things that I found so far with the Revolution is that while I know better I installed all 3 receivers that I have done so far without raising the antenna. Even so I still got quite good distance from the locos (about 50'). Also on one E8 I forgot to install any capacitors at all. The Revolution comes with a single capacitor but I bought the capacitor pack for all the receivers. Even without a capacitor the E8 ran without any problems on my outside brass track that has not been cleaned in months. Since the E8s have 12 wheels (track contacts) they are probably better on dirty track than the GP40 with 8 wheels (track contacts) but so far all has run very well. I was impressed with the very slow running speeds and smooth gradual speed increases. So far I have not got to double heading the E8s or to (as I have been told I can do) running a FA-1 and FB-1 from a single receiver. I have not installed any sound systems so far so I am concerned about what complications I may run into as I have a variety of brands of sound systems. Additionally I have not tried to control anything (smoke, lights etc.) with the Revolution yet as I was in a hurry and figured I should wait until I am ready to install sound systems (no smoke fluid to fall out when I invert the locos). Jerry | | | |
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Scottychaos
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| | 29 Sep 2009 10:42 AM |
| Thanks for the thoughts on this system Jerry! I have been looking into it myself.. Two members of my local Garden RR club has this system running, and its getting great reviews locally.. With the capicators to "store" power, combined with the fact that the rail always has "full power" applied, (similar to DCC), im wondering how dirty the rail can get, but still have trains running ok? Im wondering, because my future trackplan would ideally combine live steam with electric..if that can ever be possible.. in the past, the only way to run live steam and electric on the same rails was to use on-board battery power.. the live steamers made rail-power just about impossible.. Im curious if these new kinds of systems might finally allow live steam and "sparkies" to co-exist on the same rails.. with perhaps just wiping the steam oil off the rails periodically.. Probably no one has tried it yet..but I would love to hear about it if anyone has.. Scot | | 
Scot Lawrence
Rochester, NY USA
SA #2089
http://gold.mylargescale.com/scottychaos | |
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Jerry McColgan
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| | 29 Sep 2009 12:35 PM |
| Hi Scot, I have never quite understood the electric vs live steam controversy (regarding running both on the same track). As I understand it the worst that could happen would be that live steam could deposit an oil/water mix on the rails but aside from the potential for slipping (or possibility of oil attacking traction tires) it would seem to me that the only real problem would be that many if not most live steamers if left on the rails would short out the tracks. That was a primary reason why my first and so far only live steamer is an Aristo-Craft Mikado bought after Lewis assured me that it would be made with insulated drivers. If anything I would guess that steam oil would be at least semi-conductive and might leave a protective coating on the rail heads. Actually I wanted the ability to run both partially to power my coach lights from the rails when running live steam. In fairness, while I have run my live steamer on my track powered layout it has only been infrequently. Perhaps others may have more comprehensive information about running live steamers on track powered layouts. For me the best of all is to be able to run anything and everything on the same layouts. Another reason for my purchase of the Revolution is that under battery power (and perhaps even under MTS/DCC) I could operate a switcher or track cleaning car without taking away from my MTS 5 amp limit. My plans include putting a receiver into at least one NW-2 and maybe even into a DCC ready LGB SP Mogul (or two). One thing I find interesting is that one member of our club who does not even have a layout yet bought the 1st Revolution, I bought the 2nd and the other most active member has ordered a Revolution plus at least one or two members of another local club have also bought Revolutions. They will end up on track powered layouts, MTS/DCC layouts, DCS layouts and battery only layouts. None of us are planning to convert everything to Revolutions but rather all are buying Revolutions as an additional capability for their layouts. Even with my LGB SP Moguls, if they had a decoder interface I would have put decoders into them and used them with track power and or MTS but with a DCC interface it is just too tempting to try them with the Revolution because after all if I don't like the results I will have modified nothing and I will always be able to switch back to track power or to MTS/DCC. This brings up one difference for me in that I can run a LGB decoder equipped Mogul just as easily on track power as I can with MTS but once I put the Revolution receiver into a loco I will NOT be able to flip a switch and run that loco under track power (short of some degree of rewiring the loco). Jerry | | | |
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Jerry McColgan
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| | 29 Sep 2009 12:40 PM |
| One question I have (I have not had time to look into it yet) is how I am going to connect the Revolution to the LGB SP DCC Interfaced Mogul. The Mogul has the DCC interface and I am assuming(?) that the interface is compatible with the Revolution plug but the LGB circuit board is not laid out to make it possible to just plug the Revolution receiver into the LGB DCC Interface. I have not sorted out the "stuff" that came with the Revolution but I know it has an adapter board for locos without a DCC interface but I would want something smaller such as a male to female DCC to DCC Interface Cable. Is this something I need to make up or does someone already offer such an adapter cable? Thanks, Jerry | | | |
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Jerry McColgan
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| | 29 Sep 2009 01:07 PM |
| Posted By Scottychaos on 29 Sep 2009 10:42 AM
Thanks for the thoughts on this system Jerry! I have been looking into it myself.. With the capicators to "store" power, combined with the fact that the rail always has "full power" applied, (similar to DCC), im wondering how dirty the rail can get, but still have trains running ok? Scot
Hi Scot,
Perhaps at least part of the answer to your question can be found in the number of functioning track contacts your locos have. My personal standard is to look for locos with a minimum of six (6) and preferably eight (8) track contacts. With (as an example) an 0-4-0 (no shoes/sliders) with only 4 track contacts when crossing uneven track or turnouts (especially with a rigid frame) it is not unusual to lose at least one contact with one rail leaving only a single remaining contact. Some 0-4-0's seldom have all 4 wheels actually in contact with the rails all the time. Enter a slightly "dirty" track and instantly - no power. Capacitors may help but I don't know if they would help enough. I have also experienced several less expensive locos that came from the factory with several non-functioning brushes that contact the drivers dropping what might have been a 6 or more contact loco to 4 contacts or less (perhaps only one contact on one side and three on the other side). This is NOT a slam against less expensive locos just a fact that it is not unreasonable to expect less when paying less. Sometimes I have had to replace inexpensive locos that did not like my layouts but the new owners did not have my type of layout and love those same locos. Older locos with rough cast wheels also did a less than great job of maintaining track contact. I suspect that if I had to pick a single benefit of the Revolution it may be that it will enable people who WANT to run on track power to stay with track power rather than to feel that they HAVE to convert to battery power. Those who WANT battery power may go to it for totally different reasons. I never promote one system over another (There are things that I like about all of them). I just hate to hear that someone switched to something because he felt he HAD to do it. Jerry | | | |
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Scottychaos
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| | 29 Sep 2009 03:12 PM |
| Thanks Jerry! good info.. I have never quite understood the electric vs live steam controversy (regarding running both on the same track). As I understand it the worst that could happen would be that live steam could deposit an oil/water mix on the rails but aside from the potential for slipping (or possibility of oil attacking traction tires) it would seem to me that the only real problem would be that many if not most live steamers if left on the rails would short out the tracks. That was a primary reason why my first and so far only live steamer is an Aristo-Craft Mikado bought after Lewis assured me that it would be made with insulated drivers.
I have never quite understood it either..maybe its more "urban lengend" than we think? (although I doubt that) yes, most live steamer locomotives will short out the track..but im not concerned about that, because my railroad would be "steam only" or "electric only" operating sessions..not at the same time..but using the same tracks! To be honest, I have never heard of anyone trying a "live steam + Track power" railroad and saying it definately wont work, from actual fisrt-hand experience..im only going on the "common knowledge" that it wont work.. I have heard of one example that is DOES work! Finger Lakes Live steamers are club with the big "rideable" trains..but they also have a G-gauge loop..which runs electric and live steam, and I heard it works fine! although they use all stainless steel track, which could be a factor.. Well, I guess I will just have to try it and see! ;) (I will make a new thread for this topic..since its somewhat OT to Jerry's Revolution topic..) thanks, Scot | |
Scot Lawrence
Rochester, NY USA
SA #2089
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Del Tapparo
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| | 29 Sep 2009 06:45 PM |
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Posted By Jerry McColgan on 29 Sep 2009 09:39 AM
5. I liked the idea of using a receiver rather than a decoder because it freed me from LGB's MTS 5 amp limit (yes I know there are MTS and DCC alternatives). The receiver meant in effect no limit on the track power amperage and I had found my Aristo F1 ABBA's to be power hogs especially if I ran a pair of them.
Jerry - Not real sure of what you mean by no limit, but I assure you that there is a limit to the amount of current you can draw through the receiver/driver. The Revolution manual states a max of 5 amps continuous current (which is plently for most situations).
| | Del Tapparo
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Jerry McColgan
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| | 29 Sep 2009 07:17 PM |
| Posted By Del Tapparo on 29 Sep 2009 06:45 PM
Jerry - Not real sure of what you mean by no limit, but I assure you that there is a limit to the amount of current you can draw through the receiver/driver. The Revolution manual states a max of 5 amps continuous current (which is plently for most situations).
Hi Del,
I should have worded it better. What I meant is that with MTS (higher with some non-LGB systems) there is a 5 amp total on a given section of track. With the Revolution the limit becomes a receiver limit rather than a track block limit. Theoretically you could hook a power supply of any amperage to the tracks and the various Revolution receivers would only take what they needed leaving the balance of the track amperage available to other locos with Revolution receivers. Actually not only does the Revolution have a limit but a smoke unit should also have a separate circuit board rather than draw current from the Revolution receiver. The smoke circuit is available separately (one is included with the Revolution). As an example I could never run an Aristo F1 ABBA with 11 lighted coaches under MTS but I could run it under the Revolution with the lighted coaches taking their power from the tracks and the locos from on board Revolution receivers (perhaps two receivers rather than four could be used). If I ran an Aristo F1 ABBA with four Revolution receivers I could conceivably have up to 20 amps available to those locomotives (5 amps per receiver). LGB's MTS is limited to the track amps while the Revolution is only limited to each receivers amps. With LGB this is not as big a deal since LGB locos tend to draw fewer amps and a LGB F7 ABBA is only driving four motors while an Aristo F1 ABBA is driving eight motors. I would not give up my LGB MTS and track power that I have with my LGB F7s but I would not try to run my Aristo F1 ABBAs with decoders either (I tried it with cheap decoders and I was not satisfied with the results). Actually this could be a Revolution limit IF the Revolution was run on any of my LGB MTS circuits because if the Revolution receiver was getting power from my LGB Central Stations it would be reducing the amps available for any LGB decoder equipped locos. For that reason if I run a Revolution equipped loco on my LGB MTS circuits I will probably run it under battery power thus not taking any power away from the LGB Central Station (such as running a switcher). I hope this makes sense. Jerry | | | |
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Joe McGarry
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| | 29 Sep 2009 07:24 PM |
| Jerry, Thanks for the post. Hope you will let us know how the Revolution works out for you. There seems to be a lot of folks who have them but are not reporting their experiences with them. Nobody I know in this area has one, so I depend on info from MLS to learn about this system. The little I have read about the system it seems to be reasonably simple to use and has decent range. It doesn't seem to have all the "bells and whistles" that DCC has to offer, but sounds like something a newby llike myself could probably live with. Sure hope you will keep us informed about your experinces with it. Best wishes, Joe | | | |
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Jerry McColgan
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| | 29 Sep 2009 08:01 PM |
| Posted By Joe McGarry on 29 Sep 2009 07:24 PM
Jerry, Thanks for the post. Hope you will let us know how the Revolution works out for you. There seems to be a lot of folks who have them but are not reporting their experiences with them. Nobody I know in this area has one, so I depend on info from MLS to learn about this system. The little I have read about the system it seems to be reasonably simple to use and has decent range. It doesn't seem to have all the "bells and whistles" that DCC has to offer, but sounds like something a newby like myself could probably live with. Sure hope you will keep us informed about your experiences with it. Best wishes, Joe
Hi Joe,
I asked someone who knows far more about the Revolution than I do about why he did not post about it here on MLS and his response was that he did not want to get into arguments with others who prefer other systems and would challenge everything he said. That is why I started this topic with a request to avoid comparisons with other brands and products. I also figured that since I have a very basic understanding and I use other systems that while I cannot (and have no wish to) give an accurate step by step comparison with other brands and products I can mention those features of the Revolution that caught my attention and separated me from my money. As for the "bells and whistles" I should clarify that I am a player of toy trains. I am happy with a chuff chuff; woo woo; and ding ding so it is unlikely that I will be getting into more detailed discussions beyond forward, reverse, smoke, lights, bells and whistles/horns. I never became an expert on MTS/DCC because I have no desire to become one and similarly I have no desire to become an expert on everything the Revolution can or cannot do. Eventually perhaps someone will create a really good (and totally honest) spreadsheet showing how the Revolution compares with other brands and models of control systems but I don't expect it anytime soon. Also regarding the "bells and whistles" everyone should feel free and welcome to ask about any specific functions the Revolution may or may not have because something that is unimportant to me just might be important to someone else. I would just prefer straight questions (does it have...?) rather than comparative questions (my xxx does this, can the Revolution do it?). I'll be happy to check with Aristo on questions about the Revolution but I am not going to spend time going to other manufacturers to check out how their products compare with the Revolution. Anyone who wishes to make direct comparisons is certainly welcome to start such topics and let them run where ever they may but hopefully not on this topic here. The obvious question to me was that since I already had Aristo-Craft locos that had the DCC/Revolution interface, why shouldn't I try the Revolution? The next question for me was that if I was going to put a Revolution receiver into some of my Aristo locomotives then why not add receivers to some other Aristo locomotives that did not have DCC/Revolution interfaces but that I might want to run with the Revolution equipped locos? The third question for me was that if I was going to have the Revolution on my layout, why not have at least one NW-2 switcher with a Revolution receiver on board? As you noticed, there are a number of MLSers who own Revolutions and I am depending on them to jump in and correct any mistakes I make and fill in some of the features and functions I am unaware of (correcting my mistakes will NOT upset me as I am looking for accurate information just as much as everyone else). Additionally I am mostly a track power guy so it can be assumed that my approach is coming from that viewpoint. Battery power Revolution owners are welcome to bring up battery power features and issues that I may overlook and I will not be offended. Again I am not promoting the Revolution over other battery and radio control systems - there are plenty of other topics regarding other brands of radio and battery powered systems. I have no time frame for this topic so I may post in spurts as I get motivated and then may not say much as I get tied up with something else. Other Revolution owners are welcome to post answers to questions that may be addressed to me. Regards, Jerry | | | |
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Greg Elmassian
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| | 29 Sep 2009 08:25 PM |
| One word of caution, but you have not had this problem. There are more than a couple reports of some FA units damaging the new TE. It's not clear why this happened nor any good data on if it is related to a certain "version" of FA. As with any system running a decoder, it never hurts to double check that the track pickups are isolated from the motor outputs, and the same goes for the battery inputs isolated from the motor inputs.
(some of these reports are on the Aristo site itself)
I've run into some variations on Aristo locos that could cause damage to any decoder, rare, but it has happened.
Regards, Greg | | Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words. 
Click here for Greg's web site
PLEASE NOTE: I have disabled private messages. Please use regular email: greg@elmassian.com | |
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Jerry McColgan
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| | 30 Sep 2009 06:47 AM |
| Posted By Greg Elmassian on 29 Sep 2009 08:25 PM
One word of caution, but you have not had this problem. There are more than a couple reports of some FA units damaging the new TE. It's not clear why this happened nor any good data on if it is related to a certain "version" of FA. As with any system running a decoder, it never hurts to double check that the track pickups are isolated from the motor outputs, and the same goes for the battery inputs isolated from the motor inputs.
(some of these reports are on the Aristo site itself)
I've run into some variations on Aristo locos that could cause damage to any decoder, rare, but it has happened.
Regards, Greg
Hello Greg,
I was not aware that there were other FA-1s that had a problem with the Revolution but a friend did install a Revolution in his FA-1 and it did damage the Revolution receiver. He called Aristo and was advised to send his FA-1 to Aristo-Craft. The FA-1 was repaired at no cost and quickly returned to him. I have no idea if this affects many FA-1's but it is worth mentioning. Just to clarify the issue, the Revolution transmitter was not damaged but the receiver apparently was. In my case none of my FA/B-1s have the DCC/Revolution interface so it should not be a problem for me to convert them to the Revolution. Even so I will add that over the years I have found that Aristo has not always used the same color coding from one loco to another so if one is installing a decoder or receiver it is a good idea to confirm where the wires come from and go to and not to assume anything from the wire color. This is not a situation totally unique to Aristo as I have had products from other brands with similar color coding differences. The Revolution and the Aristo DCC/Revolution interface are relatively new. Older Aristo locomotives were not designed with DCC/Revolution in mind so it is natural that care should be taken when converting them (and other brands) to battery, DCC, on board receivers or to the Revolution. Regards,
Jerry
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Jerry McColgan
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| | 30 Sep 2009 07:01 AM |
| Aristo-Craft has information including instructions about their Revolution at: TRAIN ENGINEER REVOLUTION There also is a reproduction of the Model Railroad News review of the Revolution (click on the title): Aristo-Craft's New Train Engineer Revolution Debuts
Model Railroad News has published an excellent in-depth review of the Train Engineer Revolution in their August '09 issue. Click here to read about it (requires Adobe Acrobat PDF to be installed). Thanks to MRN for allowing us to republish the article. | | | |
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Ironton
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| | 30 Sep 2009 07:03 AM |
| Jerry,
The big problem with running live steam and track power at the same time is many live steam locos are not insulated. You will get a direct short through the drivers if you have track power on at the same time.
I have some of Accucrafts class 60s, both electric and live steam. The electric version came out first, the live steam version was later. The electric versions, of course, has insulated drivers. The live seam version does not.
That is why it is a bad idea to run both at the same time unless you check for insulated drivers. | | Rich Black
Northwest Indiana
SA #269 | |
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Jerry McColgan
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| | 30 Sep 2009 07:09 AM |
|
[script removed]  |
WHY YOU NEED THE ARISTO-CRAFT/CREST REVOLUTION RCC UNIT
ARRIVING EARLY SEPTEMBER 2009
The Revolution system has been out in the market for several months and has been successfully tested and used by several hundred end users. The vote is overwhelmingly positive and that is for battery or track power. We suggest you read this article by John Sipple of Model Railroad News, that carefully explains the value added of our product at our website www.aristocraft.com under the articles tab on the left side.
Or just go directly to http://www.aristocraft.com/articles/MRN_Revolution/TrainEngineerRevolution_MRN_0809.pdf.
which is a thorough working review from someone who truly understands digital controls.
The concept of the Revolution is to do all the commands in English and on the backlit LCD screen, yet offer the magic of multi consisting and direction control on the same track without using track signals. It uses a network that allows multiple users and multiple groups to operate simultaneously in a 400' range of each other without glitches or over-riding signals.
The Revolution can work for G Gauge DC or O Gauge AC powered trains and on track or battery power. It's plug 'n play on locos with sockets or we provide Non plug 'n play conversion boards. We also provide bridge rectifiers, so that the Revolution is compatible with DCC on multi-user club layouts or just when socially visiting friend's layouts.
The Revolution is available from better hobby dealers.
All the best,
Lewis and Scott Polk
Item Code
Description 1 List
CRE57000 TRAIN ENGINEER 2.4 GHZ 300.00
CRE57001 TRAIN ENGINEER 2.4 GHZ TX 200.00
CRE57002 TRAIN ENG. 2.4 GHZ RX 116.00
CRE57003 TRAIN ENG 2.4 GHZ RX (6PK) 575.00
CRE57072 G SMOKE BOARD 6 PACK 100.00
CRE57073 G SMOKE BOARD 22.50
CRE57074 RCC R/C ACCESS LIGHT SOUND 86.00
CRE57075 RCC-RC 5 WAY SWITCH 81.00
CRE57076 CAPACITOR BOARD FOR G 25.00
CRE57077 NON PLUG N' PLAY BOARD 25.00
CRE57078 NON PLUG N' PLAY BOARD AC 30.00
CRE57079 BRIDGE RECITIFIER BOARD 5.00
CRE57080 TX BATTERY NICAD BATTERY & CHG 25.00
CRE57086 CAPACITOR BOARD FOR HO 20.00
CRE57088 6 PIN ACCESSORY PLUG 6.00
CRE57089 EXT. BUTTON CORD 6.00
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Jerry McColgan
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Posts:1703
| | 30 Sep 2009 07:13 AM |
| Posted By Ironton on 30 Sep 2009 07:03 AM
Jerry,
The big problem with running live steam and track power at the same time is many live steam locos are not insulated. You will get a direct short through the drivers if you have track power on at the same time.
I have some of Accucrafts class 60s, both electric and live steam. The electric version came out first, the live steam version was later. The electric versions, of course, has insulated drivers. The live seam version does not.
That is why it is a bad idea to run both at the same time unless you check for insulated drivers.
Hi Rich,
Thank you for confirming the situation with the non-insulated drivers. Jerry | | | |
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dbodnar
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| | 30 Sep 2009 07:30 AM |
| Jerry - I posted the notes from the seminar on the Revolution that I did last week at the Fall ECLSTS on my web page at:
Select the first presentation in the list.
They are best viewed with Internet Explorer - when the first screen
comes up there is a button in the lower right corner that says "Slide
Show" - use this option as it gives the overlays and animations
properly - if you just click on each slide some of the information is
hidden. The presentation was video taped and is likely to join the first one on Youtube sometime soon.
dave
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Jerry McColgan
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Posts:1703
| | 30 Sep 2009 07:48 AM |
| I will relate two experiences I have had with running some of my Aristo locos with the Revolution under battery power. Before I upset the battery guys let me clarify that my use of batteries is only going to be on a very limited basis so my demands and expectations from the batteries I use is very low. After installing the Revolutions into a couple of Aristo E8s and an Aristo GP40 I started looking for some batteries I could use without having to go out and buy one (they are not cheap). My first battery discovery was with a couple of those round Robo floor vacuum cleaners (the kind that runs around like a mouse bouncing off walls etc.). My wife had a couple of broken ones and I found that they had 14.4 volt NiMH (or Lithium Ion - not sure which) batteries. Actually I had started this before I bought the Revolutions and I was going to just put a TE full size receiver into a boxcar and power the GP40 that way. As it turned out the battery was heavy so it had to be mounted in the center of the boxcar but it did work. One battery was dead but by recharging and discharging it I finally got to where I could get about 1/2 hour running time out of it. The other battery was better and I ended up with a bit more than an hour running time (loco, 12 boxcars and caboose on flat tracks). The main problem was that when the battery got low the train stopped wherever it was and I had to go and get it. Naturally this happened at the hardest to get at places. My next discovery was a Shark hand held vacuum cleaner which had a 14.4 volt NiCad battery (1350 mah). This battery was a lot lighter and surprisingly I got around an hour using it plus when it got low on charge the train slowed down but made it back to me so I did not have to go and get it. I had two of the Sharks (bought at surplus stores - yep I am that cheap) for only $15 each including vacuum cleaner with battery and charger. That worked so well I went back to the surplus store and bought 6 more Sharks (all they had) after negotiating them down to $10 each. Two had chargers and all had batteries. I figured that even if the units are used and rejects (returned to the stores and ending up as surplus) they would be good enough for my limited applications. My point is that those who prefer battery operations will probably want to buy a good battery and recharger but for those of us who have much more limited desires for battery operations (or who may be on very limited budgets) there are less expensive alternatives and you just might have one or more "free" batteries in your wife's appliances around your house. For me (with the Aristo E8s and GP40) 14.4 volts was plenty and I could probably have gotten by with 12 volts. For other locomotives a higher battery voltage may be needed. I don't know what the Revolution minimum voltage is but it is probably in the manual somewhere (someday I may get around to reading the manual).
Jerry
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Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
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Posts:1703
| | 30 Sep 2009 07:53 AM |
| Posted By dbodnar on 30 Sep 2009 07:30 AM
Jerry - I posted the notes from the seminar on the Revolution that I did last week at the Fall ECLSTS on my web page at: Select the first presentation in the list. They are best viewed with Internet Explorer - when the first screen comes up there is a button in the lower right corner that says "Slide Show" - use this option as it gives the overlays and animations properly - if you just click on each slide some of the information is hidden. The presentation was video taped and is likely to join the first one on Youtube sometime soon.
dave
Hi Dave,
Thanks for jumping in. As I mentioned I am strictly a novice with the Revolution. Jerry | | | |
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Tom Parkins
Passenger
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Posts:51
| | 30 Sep 2009 11:31 AM |
| Jerry, or anybody else, I have been seeking info on actual operating experience with the Revo. I most interested in slow speed operation. How do trains start and stop using the Revo. How does that compare to the conventional Aristo TE operationally?
When a train leaves the station does it look real? When you start a heavy freight does it hit 30 mph in 5 seconds? How easy is it to adjust "momentum" results? Have you done any switching?
Having pulled the throttle on the 1:1 the scale stuff can be a little less than realistic.
Thanks Tom
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Jerry McColgan
1st Class Member
Foreman
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Posts:1703
| | 30 Sep 2009 11:59 AM |
| Posted By Tom Parkins on 30 Sep 2009 11:31 AM
Jerry, or anybody else, I have been seeking info on actual operating experience with the Revo. I most interested in slow speed operation. How do trains start and stop using the Revo. How does that compare to the conventional Aristo TE operationally?
When a train leaves the station does it look real? When you start a heavy freight does it hit 30 mph in 5 seconds? How easy is it to adjust "momentum" results? Have you done any switching?
Having pulled the throttle on the 1:1 the scale stuff can be a little less than realistic.
Thanks Tom
Hi Tom,
No switching yet but I did run the Revolution with both E8s and a GP40 where one thing that I really liked was the very slow speed operations including starting and stopping with momentum. Most other remote systems I have tend to increase speed in visible notches (my MTS is not running on 128 or more steps). I have personally always preferred tethered remotes for switching but I just might change my mind after some more experience with the Revolution. Others can probably give much more information backed by a lot more experience. Jerry | | | |
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East Broad Top
Moderator
Foreman
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Posts:2010
| | 30 Sep 2009 01:19 PM |
| The slow speed operation is dependent on how well your particular locomotive runs at slow speed. I got a Bachmann K-27 and Aristo C-16 both to crawl, but my LGB mogul is a bit jack-rabbity. So, I'd say if your locos are capable of slow speeds, this controller will accommodate.
The nice thing about the Revolution is the graphical display of where your throttle is set. It's not quite as nice as an old-fashioned knob with a definite start and stop, but it's as close a second as you can get with push-button controls. You can at least look down and see where your throttle is set. You can set your start voltage to jump to say 20% at the first push if your loco starts moving at 21% so you're not holding down the "up" button interminably waiting for the throttle to catch up with the locomotive's operating range. After that, it's very responsive based on how many speed steps you have the unit set for. I've got mine set at 100 steps, which I find quite adequate.
The momentum works very well, and can start even my jack-rabbit mogul off fairly slowly. It definitely takes some getting used to in terms of operating, though. There are times I think it'd be nice to have two displays--one for where you have your throttle set, and one showing where the momentum adjustment has it sitting. I found myself frequently pushing the throttle button more in my impatience to see the train actually start to move. This is as effective as pushing the elevator button repeatedly. It does nothing to make the train move any quicker, it merely sets the top end of the speed that much higher.
I found the momentum particularly annoying when doing switching (my usual operations mode), so I cut it back to 5 or 10%--enough to not be instant, but not so much to where the delay is bothersome. I can press the down button and stop the train on spot to couple. I'll just as frequently use the reverse key, as that slows the loco down to a stop, waits a preset amount of time (I've got mine set to 5 seconds) and then starts moving the opposite direction at the same speed. 5 seconds is enough for me to make sure the coupling is secure, or to throw switch points, etc. Note that this ramp up and down is independent from the momentum setting, so if you've got a lot of momentum built in to your throttle setting, you can use the direction keys to stop and start quickly instead.
I've not found any control system that mimics the 1:1 throttle. Pushbuttons are sadly ill-equipped to relay that sensation.
Later,
K | | 
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Bret W Tesson
Passenger
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Posts:62
| | 30 Sep 2009 02:12 PM |
| Jerry, I have a total of 9 Rev receivers installed in various engines and battery cars. So far (overall) I'm very pleased with the performance. Although there are issues (some of which you mentioned), the system is very easy to install, program, operate and most important it's reliable. I'll summarize my results with the Good, Minor issues and the Bad. The good: - Price is very reasonable - Size is very small. I have a 4400mA 14.4V battery and receiver fitted in a 4 wheel bachmann coal car (that's one small battery car) - Easy to install particularly in Aristo PnP engines - Easy to program and modify settings - Not that hard to install in USA disels (I like the adapter board that has screw terminals) - Works great in Bachmann K-27 socket (and I assume the Bachmann mallet) - Range is always good although tunnels and going behind mountains does affect reception (it is line of sight after all) - Speed control is very good especially on battery power - MU setup is very easy to do. - Transmitter and display are easy to understand and see (even at night with the lighted display) - I'll purchase the forthcoming trackside receiver unit which I understand will provide up to 20A and either PWC or linear output. This will be great for the longer trains or trains with lighted passenger cars that would overload the 5A capability of the existing Rev receiver. Minor Issues: - Most engines need the capacitor boards if oerating on track power. My two E-8s won't run reliably without them on clean SS track. It's intersting yours work fine without. - I've had one Aristo Dash 9 that would immediately cause an overheat as soon as throttle was applied. Different receiver had same result. Looks like Dash 9 defect. - Using the socket for the Rev receiever means hard wiring a sound card (i.e. you loose use of the socket for anything else). Too bad Aristo didn't add sound - You can't presently upgrade the firmware on the transmitter without sending in the unit - You can't send the information from one transmitter to another. You must program each seperately. - You must purchase the large capacitor boards, and smoke control units seperately. - Loss of link can occur for no reason on occasion. Changing cabs up and back down reestablishes link. Others have seen this same issue. I know Aristo is working on fixes to several of these issues with future firmware releases. The Bad: - I've given up running my two E-8s (each with their own receiver) while pulling 9 USA streamliners using track power. Even with the capacitor boards, occasionally one of the engines will lose link and stop while the other is still pulling. I've tried everything immaginable and can't fix this issue. They pull fine together when using battery power. I believe this may be an E-8 issue as much as anything, but it's very frustrating. - The Rev receivers produce a PWC voltage which is incompatible with some sound cards (Soundtraxx for one). Reportedly there are "adapter" boards available to help with this issue (at a cost). - I have seen some (occasional) overheat issues while operating on sunny days even while pulling a light 10 car load. Happens with an SD-45. Overall, I'm very pleased with the system and the flexability it provides for operating off of track or battery power. It seems the overall operatation is more reliable with better control when using battery power. Just my experience to date.... | | | |
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Greg Elmassian
1st Class Member
Engineer
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Posts:7135
| | 30 Sep 2009 02:51 PM |
| Bret, a comment on your E8 situation. I run DCC track power, and had a similar problem, one loco stopping. It was also with an 8 car USAT streamliner consist. What I found was that I was drawing a whole heck of a lot of current (3 e8's each with 6 extra pounds of lead).
I had a bad connection at a rail clamp, and under the heavy current load, I was actually resetting the QSI decoders. It was easy to see this because it reset the sounds. Of course I repaired that electrical connection.
The TE is much more sensitive to short term power glitches, as evidenced by Aristo saying you need the capacitor board for track power. Possibly your problem is power fluctuations that the capacitor board cannot handle alone. It sure fits the situation, since it does not happen to you on battery.
(Yes guys, I have an Aristo Rev TE at my house)...
Regards, Greg | | Be sure to visit my site, lots of technical tips and modifications, and you can search for topics and key words.
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